Normalize PD being Scary

[Desolaris]

As the title says, IMO PD isn't a scary force when it should be if you are actually RP'ing. The only reason its scary right now for my crim is bc of such a big warrant and facing such large fines and even now I don't fear PD/GTF/SWAT, I only fear Paying the money. I Still feel the only way PD will catch me is if they catch me when, For instance, I head on a local and black out or I make a drastic mistake. I feel a change is needed.. after playing crim for quite a while and Cop for 9+months Here is what I'm suggesting

When cops deal with High-Profile Gangs known for shooting cops and escaping custody VERY often cops should be able: Increase the amount of officers on a given scene to enable actual paralleling and increasing the odds of these criminals being caught.  For instance, My crew hits a Paleto with 5 Guys with Class 3/4's and we are known to shoot cops, Cops should bring 1.5x/2x the manpower shown by the gang, so with 5 gang members, PD shoots for 7/8 - 10 officers on scene.

 

Keep in mind this is only for gangs that GTF/Leadership of PD recognizes as High-profile gangs known to shoot often. Here are pro's and cons assuming the change is implemented

Pros:

* Increased officer safety; resulting in cops winning more often making them want to clock in and be on the ground(Downed) for half their shift.

* Forcing High-Profile criminals to plan out robberies increasing robbery RP. such as Forming a plan for the robbery and not " I can outdrive them " b/c if you outdrive 10ea officers then fuck you deserve the win.

* (Personally) I like the difficult aspect to crim; so increasing the Difficulty for High-Profile criminals to move and operate.

Cons:

* The Off-chance it gets abused and we have 10ea officers on a scene with relatively some Dannies that have been in the city for a month. 

* Some people think crim is already too hard and this would further the gap to have odds stacked against them, which they are right, but............ You're a criminal....... what were you expecting.

 

Notes and my opinion:

The whole point is to make it hard on a criminal, Most criminals in real life are caught relatively often. PD should be scary, After playing PD for so long, most officers Don't think like a criminal and don't know what to expect when that crim drives into an alley preparing to mag-dump your car, and the officers that do know are considered good at their job and generally feared by criminals.

I feel this change will increase cops to win making them want to actually clock in.

[Lane2G]

+1 i think the limitation is cop presence 

[Infinity]

I feel its kind of hard when even most basic traffic stops will either turn into the criminal complaining or an all shoot out, on top of that when we has cops actually "go hard" or try to do extra police work and start making it difficult for crims, crims start to complain that we are always "Win Chasing" or "Cops always have to win" .

[Brendan Thomson]

I agree to an extent, our SOPs state we should match the force where possible.  In practice this is sometimes interpreted as 1:1 which I don't think is necessarily accurate.  Given we are mostly a reactive force criminals have the benefit of knowing what's coming next.

I don't agree that it should be common to be twice the number of units but I think if the seriousness of the crime dictates you would be a major felon then significant resources should be available to us.

 

From the gang side I've definitely already come across people whining about police presence outnumbering them multiple times (even when we didn't) so it's a tough balance to strike.  The rules are there to try and make it fun and fair for everyone and I'm for that. 

I think its a tough balance to strike and I think increasing the amount of targeted gang units/swat units might make things more interesting.

[Budal]

I feel like an increased police presence and amount of officers after the criminals will lead to criminals never having a shootout cause it becomes almost impossible to have it go your way, and i like gunfights and it feels very rare to be involved in one. I definitely think that if criminal are taking an advantageous position (high ground, barricaded area, etc...) officer should get more units.

[Denver]

I don't think physically changing anything is gonna work in a positive way, though I feel having some kind of fear for any kind of police force should be a server rule.
Example: Don't try to shoot every single cop on scene down, down the ones that are in your way of escaping and then get out of the area as soon as possible. Don't stick around to loot and shoot.
I don't want to power game fear either, cause some people RP as a character that does not fear police whatsover, but on the other side. Any huma nbeing would realistically fear a force that could theoretically move in with 20+ officers in situations like officer kidnappings, shootings, banks, etc.

On a side note to what Desolaris mentioned, I feel people should put more effort into bank robberies. Not just a go in, get the money, get out, have a pursuit, have a shootout, and that's it.
I would honestly like to see some more in depth plans that make RP fun for both parties, as shown by for example the Rascals multiple times.

[Brendan Thomson]

30 minutes ago, Lion_Luke said:

I don't think physically changing anything is gonna work in a positive way, though I feel having some kind of fear for any kind of police force should be a server rule.
Example: Don't try to shoot every single cop on scene down, down the ones that are in your way of escaping and then get out of the area as soon as possible. Don't stick around to loot and shoot.

that almost is word for word a server rule lol

 

Quote

• Players engaged in crime rp should exercise reasonable fear of police, and jail time/fines are not to be treated lightly. Example of reasonable fear of PD: If all cops on scene are down you should maintain a reasonable fear that more cops are going to be responding to the scene. Spending 15 mins looting all the cops bodies is NOT reasonable fear of PD, attempts should be made to leave the scene in a timely manner before back up would arrive.

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by Brendan Thomson

[Denver]

16 minutes ago, Brendan Thomson said:

that almost is word for word a server rule lol

 

 

I know it is, but apparently too many people still don't. And reporting people for it is close to impossible as well, so it isn't really enforced either. Not blaming anyone, just think it couldn't hurt to refresh people on the rule.

[ShesElectrick]

I think this is an interesting idea that needs to be explored more and I'd love feedback from known prolific crims. 

If you build up your reputation to be a known aggressive criminal, you should EXPECT heightened response. Increasing the police presence that can respond to these calls or warrants may actually make people think more tactically and try harder to stay under the radar. Some people may choose not to try and be the biggest and baddest, we may see more range in crim characters (Joe Shmo who sells weed and does minor crimes but doesn't shoot cops, or the middle man guy who makes drugs to give to Joe Shmo, etc.) rather than what we see now.

[Beans]

When it comes to pursuits I don't think it should be an issue to have a lot of units for a high value suspect. I am one of those criminals that gets away often and is involved in a decent amount of shootings. My opinion is mainly that I think 10+ units chasing a 5 occupant Karuma with class 3's known to shoot is absolutely fine.

It should be hard to get away and since the balancing of officers to criminals matching force was brought in months and months ago it has always been easier to get away in chases. I've recently seen a multiplication of units on high priority suspects and it had never bothered me, brings the excitement back and the adrenaline.

The only thing that I feel needs to be understood is that if you have 10 units against 5 in a Karuma in a gunfight, there's a rare chance they will win unless they setup an ambush and I'm not sure that's an avenue of hostility we want to see become 'meta'.

In conclusion, big +1 for adjusting units on chases depending on who the suspect in question is.

[Lilith Addison]

I wish more criminals would actually plan their robberies regardless. I am guilty of this myself sometimes, but just deciding to rob a bank, with no plan, and just driving? That provides very little RP, it's just grinding.

9 hours ago, Desolaris said:

* Forcing High-Profile criminals to plan out robberies increasing robbery RP. such as Forming a plan for the robbery and not " I can outdrive them " b/c if you outdrive 10ea officers then fuck you deserve the win.

+1 for high profile suspects/gangs though. Using you as an example, I have put 7 (i think) separate incidents on your warrant, LEO's have been led into ambushes, and almost every chase you have been in, you get away from. After an extensive warrant, shooting down cops, LEO's being unable to serve your warrant for almost a week, you should expect numbers and/or force. It very well could be abused, but I'm sure should a cert/department implement something like that, there would be regulations and rules.

[Pvtoneill]

Honestly from the non-whitelisted non-criminal perspective there are way too many cops. Most of the LSPD force are very aggressive and off putting to newer players. I have a couple examples of this.

 

Example 1:

I started a new character from my main and as I am going to get a hair cut, clothes and tattoos I was pulled over three times by three different officers for no reason other than being in newbie attire.

 

Example 2:

I was driving to turn in some boar meat and bones when I stumble across five dead officers. Me being a nice guy I stop and offer to take one to the hospital. I always stop and help when I see someone injured. I get immediately rushed by 3 cops and taken down for being a good Samaritan. The cops I was intending to help claimed I was the one who shot them and tried to falsely imprison me. I didn't know this at the time but one of the cops was streaming. Here is a link to the interaction. After this altercation alone, I almost left the city. Note: the streamer involved is a good cop and I've had lots of good interactions with him. Very helpful to new players and is pleasant to talk to.

 

Example 3:

I am near burgershot and a shooting occurs. PD arrives and detains and searches everyone even though we told them the shooter fled and what vehicle. The PD proceeds to rob us of any "illegal" items and cash we had on us even though we all were just innocent by standards.

 

Here are some suggestions that I think would make the server more realistic and easier on newer/lesser criminals.

> Stealing vehicles don't notify the police 100% of the time. Give each instance a small odds of notifying the police or if in a close proximity to the police than notify.

> Meth/drugs don't pin point exact location but a general area.

> Shorter timer for safe cracking at stores. 500 seconds is uncomfortably long.

> Cap on number of police for a one person pull over. There's no reason for six cops in three cop cars to pull me over for simply running a red light with a clean record.

> Limit number of cops on the job at any given time. Sometimes there might be 12+ PD on but zero EMS. I get that people don't want to be EMS, maybe that job should be avalible to non-whitelisted.

> Remove some of the most aggressive non-RP cops from the force. Certain cops are just assholes IRL and take that attitude into the city (This is by no means the majority of PD), and interactions with those officers are not fun for anyone involved.

 

This is coming from a newer player (two months) so please don't beat me up to bad for this comment, I'm still learning and don't understand all the job mechanics.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Pvtoneill

[Beans]

5 hours ago, Pvtoneill said:

Honestly from the non-whitelisted non-criminal perspective there are way too many cops. Most of the LSPD force are very aggressive and off putting to newer players. I have a couple examples of this.

 

Example 1:

I started a new character from my main and as I am going to get a hair cut, clothes and tattoos I was pulled over three times by three different officers for no reason other than being in newbie attire.

 

Example 2:

I was driving to turn in some boar meat and bones when I stumble across five dead officers. Me being a nice guy I stop and offer to take one to the hospital. I always stop and help when I see someone injured. I get immediately rushed by 3 cops and taken down for being a good Samaritan. The cops I was intending to help claimed I was the one who shot them and tried to falsely imprison me. I didn't know this at the time but one of the cops was streaming. Here is a link to the interaction. After this altercation alone, I almost left the city. Note: the streamer involved is a good cop and I've had lots of good interactions with him. Very helpful to new players and is pleasant to talk to.

 

Example 3:

I am near burgershot and a shooting occurs. PD arrives and detains and searches everyone even though we told them the shooter fled and what vehicle. The PD proceeds to rob us of any "illegal" items and cash we had on us even though we all were just innocent by standards.

 

Here are some suggestions that I think would make the server more realistic and easier on newer/lesser criminals.

> Stealing vehicles don't notify the police 100% of the time. Give each instance a small odds of notifying the police or if in a close proximity to the police than notify.

> Meth/drugs don't pin point exact location but a general area.

> Shorter timer for safe cracking at stores. 500 seconds is uncomfortably long.

> Cap on number of police for a one person pull over. There's no reason for six cops in three cop cars to pull me over for simply running a red light with a clean record.

> Limit number of cops on the job at any given time. Sometimes there might be 12+ PD on but zero EMS. I get that people don't want to be EMS, maybe that job should be avalible to non-whitelisted.

> Remove some of the most aggressive non-RP cops from the force. Certain cops are just assholes IRL and take that attitude into the city (This is by no means the majority of PD), and interactions with those officers are not fun for anyone involved.

 

This is coming from a newer player (two months) so please don't beat me up to bad for this comment, I'm still learning and don't understand all the job mechanics.

Those three examples you gave don't really show any example of police being excessive imo. I was there at the 2nd example and it's something you should learn that you shouldn't assist with helping and moving people that are shot down as you're not involved in the scene and could be causing issues with gang numbers etc.

If you have an issue with how the police handle a situation then you should file an IA and then the situation can be looked into but I would suggest reading up on the civilian rights as some of the things you mentioned are perfectly fine in the city for police.

[Mia]

@Pvtoneill the original poster brought up a topic about how many police should engage with violent established gang groups. Responses unrelated can quickly get lost so I suggest single topic threads keeping to the discussion point, for example the ratio of police and ems to civilian population.

In terms of the variety of issues you have brought up, such as unlawful searches, I suggest filing IAs with the police departments so your issues can be looked into. When providing stream footage, leave proper time stamps so 3+ hours of video does not need be poured over to find what you are talking about.

[Carl Berg]

From an experienced crim perspective, we always plan from the point of having a measured police response. that measure is always going to be more police officers on scene and in the surrounding area.  Each scene we do takes a lot of rp preparation and there is always a plan, which in some cases can take weeks to plan.  if the police wish to bring more officers to a scene, we welcome it. we don't mind if we are caught as not every plan always works out how we planed it, but it always leads to another rp scenario

+1

[lords8n]

Honestly, I don't care what happens in my PD interactions as long as it's fun.

Example: Was at a clothing store with my vehicle illegally parked right by the door. Morgan and another officer pull up and I rush outside in some hideous incomplete state of dress. We proceed to have a six officer and a threat of including Air-1 scene that had me rolling with laughter as I paid my $40 parking ticket, and almost got a ticket for a fabricated dress code infraction, of which I probably deserved life.

I do sympathize with some police and some criminals though. Those that strive for entertainment in their interactions and not just a big fat W often get blasted away by the try-hards. Sadly I don't believe there is a solution to this problem on either side except to hope for more good interactions.

I'm actually learning some Chinese (mostly cursing) to ramp up my interactions as I get more into crim. Hopefully we'll have some fun times! 

[vDrop]

 I love interacting with gangs that go hard, they get a bunch of W's and take a L maybe , which was built up over time, after A, B & C happened already. Pandas, BD, , Rascals, FDF, & SOME members of other gangs don't even think about the force being used against them once they have already racked up 300+ time. Its honestly encouraging to deal with some of these individuals that want to be treated like a high profile criminal. Randomly going to shoutout some members of Oni whom I believe have demonstrated, "Hey, I'm like top 5 wanted, here comes the force". and still get away, haha respect. 

Edit: I'm plus 1 all day, already practicing it from time to time when its reasonable & earned. 

Edited April 21, 2022 by vDrop

[Notrobby]

If this is a rule, it will 100% be abused by cops and it will eventually become the norm. I highly suggest away from this unless it's a special case that is applied towards certain orgs that request it.

[Rizz]

Ill throw my input here. As a crim, I personally love nothing more than being brutally taken down by 5-10 cops. The more cops the better, always (for me personally). I love it, but I also am looking for interaction with the most people possible, not *really* caring about rewards. 

[SONIC]

I believe the cops are not valuing their lifes as much. For example, if you see two gangs 5 on each side having a shootout with class 3's I dont think any cop is going to run in the middle of it trying to control the situation. Also, it should be still set amount of cop response for each different scenario. As we all know there is alot of scuffs that happens with plans.

[Denver]

So how about we add a "high priority" tab to the tablet, or where doesn't really matter. This would have a list of all gangs that agreed to being treated by a larger force of officers OOC. This way only gangs/ groups of people who have agreed to like more than the usual 5 cops to be present on scenes will receive this.

If a gang is not "high priority" the threat level would be met as usual with a force up to 5 officers at once while also meeting the threat level.

Edited April 23, 2022 by Lion_Luke

[Infinity]

21 minutes ago, Lion_Luke said:

So how about we add a "high priority" tab to the tablet, or where doesn't really matter. This would have a list of all gangs that agreed to being treated by a larger force of officers OOC. This way only gangs/ groups of people who have agreed to like more than the usual 5 cops to be present on scenes with these gangs/ groups of people present.

If a gang is not "high priority" the threat level would be met as usual with a force up to 5 officers at once while also meeting the threat level.

+1 i was honestly the other day working something like this in my head, but it was a high priority warrant, where if someone had so many chargers ore had so many different incidents listed on the warrant it would got to high priority, and it would basically give GTF and/or Swat the ability to go hunting for this person and use lethal force (maybe not so much lethal force, but something that would make it hard for the suspect to get away). Also thought about just making it a LS Most Wanted board instead, where certain people with huge warrants would go and the arresting cop got some kind of money incentive for catching them. Sorta like how bounties use to work back in the  old west...just less of the wanted dead or alive stuff (Though that would be kind of fun).

Edit: We as Officers would need to take a warrant to a judge or the Chief of Police/Sheriff in order to get it upgraded to a High Priority Warrant or to put the person on the "LS Most Wanted" board

Edited April 23, 2022 by Infinity

[lords8n]

22 hours ago, Lion_Luke said:

So how about we add a "high priority" tab to the tablet, or where doesn't really matter. This would have a list of all gangs that agreed to being treated by a larger force of officers OOC. This way only gangs/ groups of people who have agreed to like more than the usual 5 cops to be present on scenes will receive this.

If a gang is not "high priority" the threat level would be met as usual with a force up to 5 officers at once while also meeting the threat level.

I like this idea, but the W crims will try to abuse it i'm sure.

[Denver]

2 hours ago, lords8n said:

I like this idea, but the W crims will try to abuse it i'm sure.

I don't see how this can be abused on the crim side, you might elaborating? 

[lords8n]

18 hours ago, Lion_Luke said:

I don't see how this can be abused on the crim side, you might elaborating? 

"This would have a list of all gangs that agreed to being treated by a larger force"...

The "honorable" gangsters would accept that challenge, sure. But the gangsters that just want to complete the robbery with as little police interaction as possible will just not "agree" to be treated by a larger force. I could see the likes of The Rascals, BD, and others loving the extra challenge. But I could easily see some gangs not signing up and just wanting to wipe the smaller responding police and take their money and go.