The Fundamental Problem with RP Server Economies

[keebler_mfn_elf]

 

 

Credit Source https://www.reddit.com/r/RPClipsGTA/comments/a2998z/the_fundamental_problem_with_rp_server_economies/

I have been thinking on the problem of RP server economies and it starts with the foundational question; Why do RP servers and their economies encourage players to grind for money with NPC/mechanics? when it inevitably takes the player away from Roleplay and places a high transactional premium on whatever money is earned?

I am not talking about criminal grinding for drugs or weapons - this type of grinding, requiring the player to go from Point A to Point B and then spend time at Point B working the criminal mechanic/NPC - results in the creation of RP opportunities and potential, from the creation of an ongoing illegal tradable good (Value), the opportunity of the player to be found (Risk) and for the players criminal endeavours to be uncovered or discovered by other player characters such as cops, civilians, gangs (Cost) - Grinding for criminals is a net positive and crucial for criminal RP on a server and for its economy, despite its inevitably designed mechanical action of delaying player and RP gratification for criminals (Time).

But what is the point of civilian grinding jobs with mechanics/NPC's?

The Value of a monetary system is not in the amount of money in it - that is for all intents and purposes an arbitrary number that is meaningless and reveals nothing of an economies health - Its actual Value is in its liquidity, and its ability to act as a mechanism in itself to allow for transactional trade between players (Creating RP as a by-product). In an RP server economy, money should be seen as a mechanism in its own right that helps create and encourage RP and its potential/opportunity (it is in fact the most important mechanic). For an RP server, this then means that you would ideally want to create an economic system that prices the transactional cost of money very low (that doesn't mean its value - that is arbitrary) to allow for a low transactional cost for players and RP that requires monetary compensation for a player service, the type of economic activity you do want, not grinding with mechanics/NPC's, but RP interactions between players.

The reason why people grind with mechanics/NPC's, is not because they want to, or because they don't want to RP - most players hate grinding and the fact that it takes them away from the RP - but because the transactional cost placed by the server economy on player to player monetary service transactions is higher than the act of grinding for money. It is also why TFRP's economy seems to be drugs and only drugs - low transactional cost compared to the civilian grinding opportunities which in turn have a lower transactional cost compared to player/player service transactions (the actual RP you want to promote) within the value base of the server wide economy.

For example, the necessary costs within a server is considered by the majority of players as revolving around broadly three props; A Car, ongoing Repair costs for it, and a House (Just like real life). These are the main expenses, everything else (the player service economy) is considered as a non-essential cost. In real life this makes sense - in an RP server it is ass backwards, and I can't think of a better way to smother actual RP on a server.

Think of it as a transactional cost - for players, grinding is boring and time consuming (Value)- the money made has an RP cost (time) while also an economic arbitrary value to it. In relation to a car, house and repairs (Value), that transactional cost is seen to be worth it, so grinding is seen to be worth it - more so than the RP that is given up for the grinding (the reason why people were willing to fish all day by themselves on an RP server!). For player service transactions however - such as taxi's, tows, lawyers, service businesses, individual players transactions etc (the actual RP that you want), it is instead considered as a non-essential expenditure and thus has a relatively high transactional cost for players to spend "grinding" money on. In a real sense, players are forgoing RP transactions (eg. taxi's, the wider service economy, etc) because the value of the money earnt by grinding has a greater value than the transactional cost of getting into a taxi and paying a fare (creating RP)

In a perfect RP world, none of this should matter, but it does because human nature is very good at placing a value system on everything - even pixel money.

How to fix this?

Simple: You don't need to get rid of the grinding mechanics/NPC's - these should always be optional for players to access extra money (for those who want to). What you need to do is lower the transactional cost of money in regards to RP service Jobs (create monetary fluidity), and you can do this by giving the server player base more disposable money - money that has a lower transactional cost (no grinding to achieve) and therefore places a higher value on the transactional value of service job RP - the economy and RP you want to flourish and which is currently stagnating.

You do this simply by a weekly universal income payment to players - about $5000 a week - enough to cover repayments for cars, houses and repairs if you wish, or enough to be considered disposable income to PLAY with - in effect, such a payment brings the transactional cost of player to player transactions down to zero (it is free money that comes at no cost, eg. grinding, time, boredom, at the cost of another high valued prop - house, car etc). And of course the freedom not to grind and just to RP if you wish. (criminal RP and grinding will not be affected due to its nature).

This is a simple change of emphasis that will benefit everyone and create a player service economy for any server - a low cost transactional system for RP, a fluid monetary trade and no more stagnation, all without undermining the value within the server as even a $5000 a week payment for the player base would still see players needing to save weeks or months to pay off cars and houses - so there would be little negative effect, but it will certainly help create more demand for RP service related jobs - from taxi's to real estate agents, lawyers to hitman and everything in between.

I would like to know what views everyone has on this.

[Merr Khan]

This is in line with what is in discussion here - 

 

[SneakyAzWhat]

My somewhat brief thoughts.

1) A change of this magnitude if found to be the correct decision or method would require a server wipe. A server wipe at this stage carries the risk of pushing away a section of players who have grown accustomed or prefer this type of economy.

2) The idea would definitely be a cool experiment to see how it actually impacts player behavior when they are unaware of the intention/comparison between economy models.

3) I think this model is best suited for a more hardcore/serious RP environment. When you look at BLRP the original intention was "accessibility and casual environment". Anyone could join the server and play no matter your RP experience or skill. You wouldn't be banned for just breaking character and the goal is to let people grow and develop those skills. Over time as people improve it creates encouragement and guides the next new person to better RP. A lot of people just want to hop on and hangout, do some jobs for money and have cars to buy. The opportunities for both player types are available and fit this type of environment better imo. Especially as newer players, it allows them to slowly blend into the fold rather than forcing them into situations when uncomfortable/new.

4) Balancing economies is tricky work ESPECIALLY when it is player driven and I think that the redditor downplaying it to "just give X per week" is silly.

Can a player driven economy work? Surely, but is it the best for the type of environment that BLRP offers? IMO no.

If a white-listed BLRP server cropped up would it be worth investigating? Probably but there is a lot of effort involved when you think of the supporting structure for businesses, jobs and the overall economy. Now you're affecting development time by splitting into 2 builds.

[Str84it]

Hey there Sneak,

Quite a read mate. Thanks for that!

I understand what you are saying. And it does make sense in an approach on how to give players a choice, do you love grinding? Either for a goal or you like the action, feel free.
But it will be an option rather than a requirement to. A bit like a small 'win for life', giving you the option to focus on other things. But there are better incentives or possibilities out there..

I also agree that changing the whole economic system would be drastic and indeed possibly push away a player base that has build and is counting on it. Maybe on a white listed city indeed this can be introduced. This doesn't mean it couldn't be supported better in our current build.

But in regards of RP I also would like to touch on the fact that it's often also about creativity and inspiration. I believe even with a change of economic approach, you will still have a group of people that will be standing still. Waiting for some light to shine upon a path made for them. Not everyone just walks into the forest. Some just need some insight on where to go first. And that's fine.

I look upon this great city as a box of wooden blocks, which you can create anything with.  Yes you can go to a toy store buy a 'ready to go' castle.
Or wait for the leaders and devs to create it for you. Or you can build it yourself. Create your own.

Will a player driven economy work? - Depends on how you value success and what this means to you. 
I have a bank, a scrapyard, warehouses, cigar store, moonshine set up, projects, foundations and other things. 
Therefore i rent out offices, have mechanics, drivers, accountant, deals with taxi companies, mechanic shops, store owners... my measurement of success is interaction and how many people actually enjoy it.  I can not say at this point my bank account is growing, quite the opposite. Think i'm spending my two years of grinding. But that was my point, freedom to RP, for me that's interaction.
If the economy was different, I believe it would still be the same in my case. Not ideal for a long term input, I see what you are saying.

My personal view on how to change things doesn't involve the amount of cash we dealing with only.
But on how we can inspire, motivate, encourage, and create RP. Which means a different thing for a lot of different people.
4 gang members sitting on a roof in a neighborhood having fun all day being silly, might feel like they had a great day RP'ing.
While for someone else having a adventure with 4 strangers all over town, involving others is considered good RP.

I believe we veteran players and the leaders of this community have the responsibility, right and possibility to change things around.
From the bottom up by players, but also given thought from the top down.

I believe a lot of people on staff have quite busy lives,  have hands full moderating, running, maintaining or developing when it comes to BLRP to.
Thinking on how to improve RP in the root of the community takes a lot of insight and also time. I  see the effort is there but I think we all understand this.
So I am glad people like yourself and other players provoke thought and dialogue, like Merr also showed above. 

I have quite a few idea's on how we can help and what staff could do. At this point I see the will is there. So I believe it can only get better!
See a lot of incentives towards more branching RP instead of situational. And the new influx of players certainly brought a fresh set of minds.
Not going to list the whole set of idea's here because , let's face it. This post was long enough

Just want to end on a positive note by saying, we have all kinds of people here. I can not say what's good for you but create stories by being a story.
And have fun creating your life. Find like minded people to hang out with and be patient, keep your idea's coming. 

Cheers!

[SneakyAzWhat]

20 minutes ago, Str84it said:

My personal view on how to change things doesn't involve the amount of cash we dealing with only.
But on how we can inspire, motivate, encourage, and create RP. Which means a different thing for a lot of different people.
4 gang members sitting on a roof in a neighborhood having fun all day being silly, might feel like they had a great day RP'ing.
While for someone else having a adventure with 4 strangers all over town, involving others is considered good RP.

Great post, always a pleasure chatting whether on here or discord messages about this very topic long ago  This is one of the most important things that I should've taken more time to highlight in my post instead of being lazy. The truth is we have an opportunity to RP how we want to as individuals. That scale varies on a player basis as does the satisfaction with their experiences amongst others. As long as there is an opportunity for both player types then there is a path to success. Tommy is a shining example of building business and RP scenarios within the current framework.

My closing thoughts are: I think if a server wipe is NOT going to occur (a lot of work would be required) what is the best path to supporting these 2 play styles under the current framework and structure? Time would have to be invested into supporting the "social jobs" where earning money ties into interactions with players rather than NPCs. It is a balancing act when you consider the amount of activities, player count and map size in this equation on top of any framework/coding restrictions.