Increase in Gang Numbers during RP Scenarios

[Razec]

Hello fellas! 

Hope everyone is doing great!

 

I'm writing this post based on the number of police officers I've seen on the server and more particularly during prison transports.

Today there were a total of 7 cops transporting a wanted criminal to Bolingbroke. How can a gang of 5 members even go against, considering one is restrained in the bus, 7 heavily armed and heavily armored police officers? 

 

That brought me to this post. Can we either get a decrease of police officers involved in a scene or a increase in the gang numbers?

 

Apart from that, is it possible that the people in the bus transport wouldn't count as involved gang members?

 

What do you guys think?

 

Edit: It is my personal belief that police officers are little bit too overpowered in the city. Not everyone walks around with armored vests or ak47's, since they're expensive or take a long time to make. I believe this needs a change, not by limiting police officers, but by inserting a few things into the gameplay to make our lifes a little bit different. 

 

Example: Today me and my friend we're breaking into vehicles. We both failed and went to hide. 2 police officers came, searched the whole parking lot and impounded the parked vehicles that were being robbed. I believe some guidelines need to change, since it's not realistic to make cars simply disappear by "impounding" them. Not only that, but you're making the person that owns the car techically go to the impound lot and pay a fine for something that someone else did to their property, kinda weird. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by Razec

[vDrop]

- Vehicles that were being robbed become evidence. Anything involved in a potential crime scene would become evidence. 
- PD does not have access to a tow truck to manually tow the vehicle away to the PD Lot, or Impound Lot, and Tow Services were unavailable at the time, therefore PD can "Impound" the vehicle and make it go *poof*
- Regarding the Prison Transport, if you feel the PD was excess in numbers, you can file an IA Report with Video Evidence. 

- Regards to not wanting Gang Members in custody on the bus to count. +1. I find someone in cuffs is unable to cause any physical harm. So I agree with you there for sure.
- EDIT: I'm personally a fan of increasing gang numbers too, but I believe there's been issues with that in the past, however I'd like to see it grow. I'd personally like to see MORE groups out there as well, rather than super groups. (No attacks on anyone, I just like having more groups to investigate. I also like seeing groups fight groups, lol. )

Overpowered? Eh, personally. Its Roleplay, not GTA Online. We are not winning when you get arrested. We are not winning when or if you get shot. Organized crimes can cause some great RP that can out smart police any day. Just have to find what works for you. 
 

Edited October 7, 2020 by vDrop

[Kevin Ross]

Something iv noticed about other cities tho that i personally have taken quite a liking too is, If your gang is typically known to run a "block" like lets say grove, And your 5, 10, 20 members deep at any given time on the block. Regardless of numbers, If someone engages your gang on the block, Or brings a situation back to the block, If PD (Or other gangs) Try anything on you on that turf, They have full (server) permission to respond accordingly. Obviously if LSPD feels confident they can apprehend the people, They can, Or even place warrants if they an ID people correctly. But point being those 12 balla's ain't getting a ban or warning for blasting the three cops that chased one of the boys back to the hood and tried arresting him.

That is my personal opinion that i would like to see changed, As it encourages turf gangs over the almost dozen hidden families & gangs that are currently present inside the city.

[Razec]

14 hours ago, vDrop said:

- Vehicles that were being robbed become evidence. Anything involved in a potential crime scene would become evidence. 
- PD does not have access to a tow truck to manually tow the vehicle away to the PD Lot, or Impound Lot, and Tow Services were unavailable at the time, therefore PD can "Impound" the vehicle and make it go *poof*
- Regarding the Prison Transport, if you feel the PD was excess in numbers, you can file an IA Report with Video Evidence. 

- Regards to not wanting Gang Members in custody on the bus to count. +1. I find someone in cuffs is unable to cause any physical harm. So I agree with you there for sure.
- EDIT: I'm personally a fan of increasing gang numbers too, but I believe there's been issues with that in the past, however I'd like to see it grow. I'd personally like to see MORE groups out there as well, rather than super groups. (No attacks on anyone, I just like having more groups to investigate. I also like seeing groups fight groups, lol. )

Overpowered? Eh, personally. Its Roleplay, not GTA Online. We are not winning when you get arrested. We are not winning when or if you get shot. Organized crimes can cause some great RP that can out smart police any day. Just have to find what works for you. 
 

In regards to increase in gang numbers, I have a suggestion to maybe not cause any problems in the future. If gang members had to make a request in the forums to join a specific gang and if these people were needed to be whitelisted to do so, it would possibly make it harder for randoms to make big ass gangs and RDM. While also allowing people (the ones willing to do the right thing) to join and partake in bigger gang scenarios. 

 

Cutting it short: Full gangs would only be able to partake in bigger conflict scenarios IF they are registered in the forums and allowed to operate like that by the staff team. 

Edited October 7, 2020 by Razec

[vDrop]

I actually like what @Kevin Ross wrote. Ask him, me and him don’t agree all the time haha. But that would be cool tbh. Like the opposite of a green zone for gangs. Gang territory could and would be taken more serious imo. 

[___]

First off I'd like to say that I'm happy to see community discussion on rules. Although we often hear concerns - things like this help us see where the community stands on topics, and helps us get better insight on various things. 

The gang/prison bus rule is currently under review - there is no for sure on if it is changing or when, but it is being discussed.

@Kevin Ross I like this idea personally, however I do see some concerns. Do you feel as if this is balanced? If a gang doesn't ever leave their territory - how does 1-4 people ever really have a shot at competing with 10+ people? Do players get into altercations outside of their territory and immediately speed back to a location where their opposition will be severely outnumbered? The logistics make sense in an IRL scenario, of course it's a dumb idea to start beef with a balla on grove street where you're severely outnumbered - but we strive to keep things as balanced as possible so that both sides of an altercation can have the same shot of achieving the desired outcome of the scenario. I would really like to hear your thoughts on this, and I don't want to come across as shutting down the idea - I just want to hear more about how you believe it would work out and remain balanced for everyone. 

We have discussed whitelisted gangs in the past, most times where the idea has been turned away - but that doesn't mean that it can never happen. What would the benefits to a WL gang be outside of the idea of allowing gangs to follow a modified ruleset? I worry that a new player to the server should be able to do as they wish to formulate a gang, and be on the same playing field as other members. As i mentioned before, I'd love to hear more about this idea. 

The staff team works hard to make sure everyone's voice is heard, and change/add things that are needed to allow everyone to enjoy their RP to it's fullest extent. Even though sometimes we don't comment or get back to people on the forums, we are reading and bringing most ideas up for discussion. Keep at it!

 

[Kevin Ross]

8 hours ago, Azvek said:

@Kevin Ross I like this idea personally, however I do see some concerns. Do you feel as if this is balanced? If a gang doesn't ever leave their territory - how does 1-4 people ever really have a shot at competing with 10+ people? Do players get into altercations outside of their territory and immediately speed back to a location where their opposition will be severely outnumbered? The logistics make sense in an IRL scenario, of course it's a dumb idea to start beef with a balla on grove street where you're severely outnumbered - but we strive to keep things as balanced as possible so that both sides of an altercation can have the same shot of achieving the desired outcome of the scenario. I would really like to hear your thoughts on this, and I don't want to come across as shutting down the idea - I just want to hear more about how you believe it would work out and remain balanced for everyone. 

So after trying to write this post for the 20th time and reforming my thoughts and opinions on it, This is my personal final verdict at this time.

I do feel it's balanced, Under the right circumstances. Such as that being something like this:

-Gangs on their own turf do not need to be concerned about "Gang Sizes" rules in the Gang's section of the server rules.

-No Bringing Back Civilian Hostile RP Back To Turf ( to avoid power gaming between gang conflicts)

-Yes you are permitted to bring LSPD Back to turf (Recommended to avoid due to potential warrants, Accessories to a crime etc etc)

-If you wish to engage a gang on its turf, You accept the fact you will be outnumbered by your own choice.

 

Some more things that would need to be fleshed out a bit more would be like, How do you define the size of a turf? How do you determine where it ends and begins in almost near exact definitions? How well if explained, Would someone interpret the gang turf dimensions? How would someone take over that turf from that gang? How do you handle someone shooting into a turf and the turf responding to that? How would you determine if two groups of 10 sat on the same block, Who has rights? How would you lose the turf? How would you gain a turf? This would all need to be explored more but presently it is 5am and i cannot. But its some brain food for people to think about for the time being. Something that a live discussion may be better suited for.

[Alex frost]

i can see where the thought that police seem to overpopulate in some scenarios comes from, considering i have had the whole force at times be chasing me when im in a car or even just on foot running away, i do not feel like the whole PD should be responding to 1 criminal all at once. maybe some changes for PD can happen like limiting how many officers can go to a scenario depending on the amount of criminals involved. i understand that this is RP and should not be viewed as GTA online, but in all honesty there still needs to be a even playing field other wise it becomes impossible for criminals to even make a living, and that is the kind of stuff that can cause people to bounce. as far as gang limit goes IMO i feel like there should not be a limit that says okay this is the amount of people in your gang that can be involved in a hostel scenario at a time. instead of that maybe something else can be done to help limit it from becoming 20+ people at a time, like limit the amount of people that can be in a gang or a MC, I do not see the need for a gang or a MC to have 15+ people in it. this to me makes it harder for other gang's or mc's to grow in numbers because it becomes a game of oh! i wanna join the gang or MC that has the most people in it! IMO that hinders other people from growing their gang or mc. so maybe we can limit gangs and mc's to have a max amount of member in it to 10 or something like that.  this should help level out the gangs and mc's in city.     

[Kevin Ross]

Alright since i have time im going to continue my Turf discussion on how it'd operate.

So to explore the points i had listed, And just a reminder of what they are:

1. How do you determine the sizes of a turf, And how well would it be interpreted if explained. (Example: Train tracks, Does that cover the entire track? Other side of the street, The intersection etc)
2. How would a turf be taken over. Why would this be needed? Imagine if Vago's had another Vago group come into town, Whole 10v10, Two different vago groups go to war over who the real vago's are. How would you determine who retains the rights to make themselves the official vago group? [Not that this is how vago's operate, is just an example]
3. How do you handle assaults on or beside turf against the turf? Complicated but imagine your on grove, And some dude up by up by mosley's starts blasting you guys at the convenience store. Does this permit the entire turf to retaliate? Or does this permit only a 4v4 engagement?
4. Who has rights over a turf when turf's get implemented. Let's say theres two balla's groups, Each with 8 members each and they do not want to merge and have a war for days over the turf. There has to be some deciding factor over who actually runs the block.

Lets create a foundation for Turfs, How there defined and size and so on.

Turfs Definition: A street or set of street's under the control and operation of the presiding gang or organization

Turfs Size: The street name in question, Until the next block or intersection. This includes the housing/Buildings on either side of the claimed street. See Example photo of grove street:

https://i.imgur.com/DUS4ZRG.png

Turf Control: Groups with an Approved Gang Application(Business) will be able to determine turf area. The amount of area claimable must be appropriate to the size of the group. Example: 8 people groups with only 2 active members can't claim all of grove, forum and davis ave as their turf. It needs to be appropriate to the size of your group and maintain activity within the turf to retain rights to it.

 

Then we move into Attacking a Turf, Defending a turf, And then Bringing Issues Back To Turf.

Attacking A Turf: Whether its for reason or not, You as the attacking party are only permitted the regulated Gang Size Rules amount to attack a turf and must follow all server rules when doing so. You accept the fact you will be outnumbered by the defending party.

Defending a turf: If you are defending your territory, ONLY Gang SIZE Rules do not apply, All other rules do apply to you on and beside your turf. If someone wishes to run, And gets more than a block away, All server rules apply to the defending party. People who attack and run just to make groups form to take down defenders will be punished as that is power gaming the turf regulations.

Bringing Issues Back To Turf: Gangs are not permitted to bring other civilian hostile RP Back to turf, Doing so will be considered PowerGaming as you will easily outnumber the opposing side. Gangs ARE Permitted to bring LSPD Back to turf but may suffer in city consequences such as Warrants, Raids, Felony charges and so on[This really banks on the LSPD and DOJ To work together to figure out how to handling these situations].

 

And i think that would cover most of how a turf would operate in my mind. Only thing i haven't really covered is losing a turf or a block/street to competition, Aswell as inactivity below a certain threshold may lead to loss of turf rights. But that's something i can't really put words to at this time.

@Azvek This is about as much as i can conjure for the topic. Any thoughts or agreements/disagreement's with my methodology of how a turf would operate?

[Kevin Ross]

@Azvek Looks like burner phone is now missing from crafting, I guess it's been scrapped for the time being i presume?