Earpieces, discord/VOIP and Meta

[Tomas García]

I'm starting this post because I think that some issues keep repeating themselves and it could be informative for everyone. A healthy discussion and maybe even clarify some rules or define a new one.

Meta (Meta-gaming) is poison for RP. It's simply cheating generally to gain an advantage. We are here to RP and have fun, anyone cheating in such way is just making it less fun for the rest. That's the most simply way to put it.

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Light/tolerated Meta

 I'm going to give an example of Meta, that so far seems tolerated in the server, but that is still meta and that probably someone quite into RP will avoid to. That would be doing meta that does give an advantage to someone but at least doesn't give affect negatively to others, at least in a direct way.
 Examples:

A) Player1 and Player2 are playing in the city, they are in different areas and they want to meet. And even they are not in a IC call, coms or similar, they still tell each other the location and meet up.

    ---- There is no real damage done to others in the case

B) Player1 and Player2 are playing in the city, they are in different areas and while they play they are chilling in a VOIP program. Player1 crashes his bike and needs EMS. They aren't in any IC phone call, coms,... they are just chatting in VOIP but when he is down and gets no EMS he tells his friend. Player2 goes to Player1 location and calls EMS.
    ---- There is a possible damage done to others, since the EMS could priorize that med call since there are two calls in the same point, and leave other on hold that could have gone sooner if the double call had never came in.

C) Using /OOC to ask questions that could be asked ICly. It simply changes plausible RP into meta and leaves out the chance of interaction with anyone that doesn't meta.
    ---- There is mainly damage done to your own character, since any of that information shouldn't be used. But also is negative towards other players since if you are using info to meet up with someone and you use /ooc instead of tweet, they won't be able to appear there if they wanted to interact with you in any kind of way.

 

 So hanging around in discord and talking about stuff meeting and even doing some meta, RP wise kills me but I get it, in a relaxed environment. This is a game to have fun and so far so good. But now we are going to talk about what goes beyond that.
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Meta that crosses the line

 This category will cover those cases that meta is done, even if without intention but that affects negatively the other players experience. It goes against the rules and lowers the quality of everyone's RP if many people do it.
Examples:
 A) Some people hanging in a VOIP and one of them calling out "Cops are heading to the weed field" or "I'm been rob at legion", and any in that VOIP acting with that info

    ---- The information shared is already on the head of those in that same call, either they decide to run away from the weed field, give backup at legion, or do anything with it. It's still partially affecting their decisions. So meta is been forced into them by the player that said that. And more meta is done if they act based on that info. It affects negatively to both those that got information they shouldn't get and way more to the cops or the robber if someone decides to act upon that info. I guess I should mark that what really crosses the line is acting upon that information.

 B) Stream watching while playing and using any of that information

    ----  Certainly doesn't make sense to watch a stream of the same server that you are playing while you play. I guess still wouldn't matter if none of that information is used. But in the moment any information is used and affects other players is not good. Doesn't matter if it's to go towards them, run away from them, or know things about conversations without been in character there. Mostly because they are not even giving to you that info in a conscious and voluntary manner.

 C) Using any IC info found in OOC forums, stream recordings, youtube, or even OOC talks in VOIP that are not IC.

    ----   It's the same as the category before. Unless there is some interaction planned OOCly to setup a scene IC. Any other kind of information wouldn't be fair to use it. And it crosses the line if at any point the actions done based on that information does affect negatively to other player/s experience.

 D) Anyone using "coms" without a IC coms system. Either because it was never RPlayed out,  or because coms have been taken during RP.

   ----   Simple enough. If for some reason someone belongs to a gang, company, public service, or even normal citizens that decide to use them. It should be something other people are aware off. if there is no way for others, visually or through your RP to know that you might be using that, then it's not fair. Since others can't act based on what they perceive. And it crosses the line if those coms are used to create any kind of interactions that affects negatively to other player. Same case would be to use them if during a RP, let's say a kidnapping someone RPlays taking phone and coms away from a person, and the person keeps using the VOIP to hear or give info.
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How to avoid meta.

 This are some general tips:

• Do not use OOC, Use /tweet or go to any other civ (player) to do questions like "How can I get a driver's license", "How do I cook meth",... That will generate RP and you will meet people though RP. OOC should be reserved for things that doesn't make sense IC and can only be asked there like "My arms go through my jacket how do I fix this?", "My voice is not working, give me a min", "What's the key to open the menu?".
• If you are in a VOIP call, use it to laugh, have fun. Share experiences and such. Do not use it to give information about players that aren't in the call. When you give info, you are forcing meta in others even if they don't want it, the info is already in their heads and in a way or another might affect their decisions.
• If someone does meta in a call where you are hanging, just request him to do not do such thing and explain why. Maybe he simply doesn't know about it.
• Try getting out of any calls or mute/deafen yourself if some RP situation is popping where you are. For example if you get kidnapped, you start a robbery or even just are planning it, ... or even if your character bumps and is meeting someone new. It will enhance your RP experience and the other part too and you can always go back to the call when you are back to hanging around, farming or driving.
• Be a normal human been. Well... your character I mean. Most of the people don't walk around with a coms system. Use it only when you ICly decide to go for it. A few guys prepare a hit, they decide to get coms, go for it... A gang uses coms ... go for it. I think you get what I mean. In the rest of the cases people don't usually go around in the street with a coms system ready to use in case shit happens.
• In the same line as before. If you hadn't plan to have a coms system, do not start using one out of the blue. That's just terrible RP and a way to try to hide meta.
• And for those that want to go a step further: Simply do not use coms. Even if been a gang, you will be quite more immerse into RP if you do it all in game, using whispering-normal-shout. And the SMS system that the server has or tweet.

 

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The rules about it.

"Meta Gaming : Do not use information outside of the game-play environment to your benefit, or to locate, stalk, harass or interfere with another player's experience." -

My suggestion to the current rules. : Add under Gameplay section a new item "Earpieces / Coms".  Players should be able to use those if they are wearing the earpiece model in game, there are currently two available. And they will have to stop using them if someone rplays taking them away from them, till they are able to go to a safe place to get a new one.

The reasons for that suggestions is to prevent players from pulling coms when they whenever they need them without RPlaying them out. Since there are many cases where 'backup' comes without any IC reason making encounters unbalanced mostly when a non-meta encounters someone that meta. Meta is really hard to prove and this would at least make it more easy to deal with those that use coms as an excuse for it.

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Last note about this post

This post will be updated with any other cases that you guys want to add and could improve it. Go ahead and post in this threat the things you agree with, disagree with. Or even questions about situations that you aren't sure if it's meta or no. I will try to respond within my knowledge to any of those. Any other kind of feedback or criticism is always welcome.

[speed]

6 minutes ago, Tomas García said:

My suggestion to the current rules. : Add under Gameplay section a new item "Earpieces / Coms".  Players should be able to use those if they are wearing the earpiece model in game, there are currently two available. And they will have to stop using them if someone rplays taking them away from them, till they are able to go to a safe place to get a new one.

The reasons for that suggestions is to prevent players from pulling coms when they whenever they need them without RPlaying them out. Since there are many cases where 'backup' comes without any IC reason making encounters unbalanced mostly when a non-meta encounters someone that meta. Meta is really hard to prove and this would at least make it more easy to deal with those that use coms as an excuse for it.

We won't be adding a rule like this for a couple different reasons.

Most importantly, this doesn't fit into the server's role play style. This is a public, light-rp server. As shitty as it might be when somebody does this, we're not going to issue a ban for something somebody might have done. As you said, it's very difficult to prove something like this without the player straight up admitting they did it.

Whitelisted LSPD are the only ones expected to follow this style of roleplay. If they don't, it will have an effect on their LSPD career, but will not get them banned.

[Tomas García]

Meta-game is one of the things that can unbalance and disturb RP the most. What I'm trying to state here. That some steps that might help stop it could be taken. Maybe my suggestion wasn't perfect, but at the current point, Why is meta-game in the rules if there is nothing there that helps detect it or stop it?

Because as things are been stated there is never a situation unless a player straightly admits, records himself or streams it, that someone will be banned or caught in meta-gaming.

 

[Anton]

I could install Teamspeak or any other voice-chat software and use it for meta and there could be nothing to stop me, except myself.

[Tomas García]

@Muroko That is my point. There is not way to fully stop it or detect it. So at least if someone rushes into a scene, in which, there was no way coms could have been used, then it could only have been "a big coincidence".
Like I said, meta is hard to detect or stop, yet there are things that can be done so it's not abused so much.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Tomas García

[Johhny Knoxville]

i think its really annoying because when your rob or kidnap someone he will tell his friend where he is while we took all his communication he had on him soo he shouldnt be able too ask him too come and ruin it

[Johan]

30 minutes ago, Johhny Knoxville said:

i think its really annoying because when your rob or kidnap someone he will tell his friend where he is while we took all his communication he had on him soo he shouldnt be able too ask him too come and ruin it

I never rob people but yesterday I had a good chance doing it. And this happened to me, I feel how frustrated people can be who plays much characters like that 

[Merr Khan]

I love it when they talk in game and over discord by mistake, even better when you can hear the buddy (in the background) talking on discord through the in game voip. This really pisses me off as a cop, cause i cant just shoot them or beat them up and leave them there to die. Stuck saying "Sr. i don't who your talking to handcuffed like that but please stop". sure enough the  friend always either shows up, or comes running into a PD station to beat up the cops. I would also put the avg age group of the people who do this at around 12, last time i checked this game is rated M...

Don't need more rules to hinder the non-meta players. We need responsible parents to take the game away from children. 

[Johan]

2 hours ago, Merr Kahn said:

Don't need more rules to hinder the non-meta players. We need responsible parents to take the game away from children. 

Well said. Sad part is - thag's never gonna happen and we can't do a thing about it. 

[Salvick]

On 11/27/2017 at 12:11 AM, speed said:

We won't be adding a rule like this for a couple different reasons.

Most importantly, this doesn't fit into the server's role play style. This is a public, light-rp server. As shitty as it might be when somebody does this, we're not going to issue a ban for something somebody might have done. As you said, it's very difficult to prove something like this without the player straight up admitting they did it.

Whitelisted LSPD are the only ones expected to follow this style of roleplay. If they don't, it will have an effect on their LSPD career, but will not get them banned.

Today I thought the guys playing as cop where meta-gaming because they were at the exit of the Altruist Camp/Ephedrine Field, I did wrong because instead of roelplay with them the whole situation I got triggered and started to ask /ooc and even by the mic if that wouldn't be meta-gaming.

You know there is one single unique spot where the only thing people do is illegal stuff and you go with your police cruiser and camp there or you just patrol the area to take a look to see what's going on.

To be honest, we messed up stuff with the altruist and there were shots and stuff, so probably if nothing of that happened the guys could just let us go, follow us a little bit or questioning without need to search our trunk or frisk us if we would played our part well.

However, I still think there's some meta-gaming that is ok like, even if the guys playing as cops knows there's an ephedrine or weed field they could just act as if they wouldn't know and still interact with whoever they want around there, pretty much the same if you just want to give advice in whichever private VoIP you use with your friends and let someone know who is around just looking to interact with people when we have less than 32 chances to see another player around the huge area of San Andreas.

When you play board role-play games you usually arrange the scene before you roll the dices, I think a wise role-player knows this and they can handle some small arrangements in order to get a proper and rich role-play situation with other members. I haven't seen much people using the /me command to describe what they're doing (almost seen none tbh) and that would be more concerning that if someone talks with a friend on TeamSpeak or Discord to ask for help, we all know a lot of meta-information that would allow us to know stuff and act accordingly, yet I think we are committed to provide the best and funniest experience we can for everyone and that'd be enough.

If it is only about who "win or lose" then cops could have radar blips all the time and just camp the areas where they know the illegal areas are to catch criminals and you couldn't win ever at all against them but is about the fun and a good and relaxing time with other players, right?

[Tomas García]

@Salvick I don't know details about the situation you had at the Ephedrine Field. But for what you said that doesn't fit meta at all. Let me explain. If everyone in town knows that in that location drugs can be obtained, that's not out of character info, it's IC. Metagaming would be to find about it because you read about the location on the forums, but if players acquire that knowledge in game that's not meta. So far the map is considered IC for all that I know and that's why everyone knows about those spots. So a criminal or cops going to that area because they know what's in there, shouldn't be meta.

 

3 hours ago, Salvick said:

When you play board role-play games you usually arrange the scene before you roll the dices,

That's not always the case, in fact that's the most rare case. Basic RP is where players create their characters and then they interact through roleplay based on the personality of their characters and what those would do in the situation they found themselves. Pre-arranged RP is when OOCly you talk with other players to plan a situation and sometimes the outcome and then everyone goes and does it. Most of the interactions in badlands are free RP, without anything pre-arranged.

 

 

3 hours ago, Salvick said:

f it is only about who "win or lose" then cops could have radar blips all the time and just camp the areas where they know the illegal areas are to catch criminals and you couldn't win ever at all against them but is about the fun and a good and relaxing time with other players, right?

It's about RP. Simplifying the topic a bit too much I'm going to give you and example. The objective of most of cop characters will always be to "keep a safe city and enforce the law". The objective of most criminals should be "To make the most profit and do not get caught". The issue and drama I see from time to time is when criminals get pissed because cops get them doing illegal stuff. And those that complain that way understand police is there just to go tease them when they are bored and then should stay out of their way, and that doesn't make sense. Certainly no cop should be camping any area in particular, legal or illegal, because that would block the area in some way. Cops should be patrolling, doing raids in those illegal areas if they spot any criminal activities and so on. The goal of players shouldn't be grind money, the goal should be have fun with RP.

[Salvick]

Yet you don't seems to be addressing what I'm trying to bring here, although I agree with everything you said, I'm pointing out something else that would be that the map of San Andreas is the board where we play and the same way the civilians are not allowed to enter the mission row at police departments, the army base and other areas and neither are allowed to cop-bait, the only two spots where criminals gather their illegal resources should stay under the same parameters, even if you want to base this assumption comparing it with real life situations, the cops knows where the people buy drugs, the intelligence services knows who are the big drug lords and the politicians knows who are the corrupt powerful people that allows the drug trafficking and other illegal business, yet the police never raid them, they never enter in the most dangerous areas of criminal activities (unless they are on a pursuit or other exceptional situations) and the army, police, intelligence services never are patrolling areas that are out of their jurisdiction or simply out of their boundaries due to how the different organizations works, legal and illegal ones.

I think that since I've been reading several times around here that this is not meant to be a hardcore RP community, the same as we can expect cops "baiting" criminals in the surrounding areas of the illegal activities spots, talking on mic through external VoIP services neither should be a major issue.

In my particular described situation, as same as any other role-play engagement, anything could have happened to justify the scene and just have fun, I'm just pointing out that there are many different "meta" situations that would be more concerning than just talking through the mic out of the game, if you ever played any board role-play games you should know there's a Game Master and a story line to follow which clearly arranges every single situation where the players finally roll their dices, is quite different from what the actual online role-play games are and there's still a lot of meta-gaming that could be possible and the Game Master is always balancing the game by making sure that no one uses outside information in their advantage, but since here we don't roll dices the only "random" factor we have is our own maturity and creativity to be fair and ensure fun for both parties and not be always biased by the "who wins or lose" factor.

Since the map of San Andreas is the board and since we are not here to "play to win" but more than that to have fun building our character's stories, talking through the mic, same as developing a fun role-playing to justify a scene where you engage with other players on purpose because you know based on external information that "there will be someone doing something in particular" are both possible meta-gaming situations that still are impossible to control because neither you can know if the cop or the criminal was going to a particular area of the map by just randomly driving or because he was expecting to interact with someone else with the knowledge of what people does in that area.

Sorry if I'm deviating a little bit the topic by bringing a different scenario than the mic thingy but I think that having a very small cap for only 32 players in a huge map like San Andreas is something that really justifies a lot of allegedly meta-gaming situations and we all have our right to get pissed as criminals or cops when someone is doing meta from our point of view but yet, you don't have a way to confirm most of these and will be always easier to just improvise to create a role-play wise justification like that the cops were just patrolling or the civilian was just buying cigars at the store or the criminal was robbing a bank because the thug life choose him.

As a civilian don't you look at the map what are the different stores you can rob, where the gathering areas are and where to sell stuff or buy cars and clothes?

As a cop is just the same, or don't they get radar blips to head to a robbery in progress? Or if they are out of their town they go asking people around where the General Store of Grand Senora is?

And how could any of us confirm if the civilian or the cop already learned this in-character or he just had to ask in Discord or out of the game?

I appreciate your answer though, although I think we will not agree with some minor details but I generally agree with your statement regarding how meta-gaming could easily disrupt the role-play immersion while I still think that is not something that severe since at the end there will be always people who just wants to relax and have a good time in the game even if it implies arranging some stuff out of the game and regarding this no one should feel scared of playing a game because "you'll get banned for meta-gaming tho".

 

Regards man.

 

Edit;

TL-DR wall of text: I agree that meta-gaming might be an issue, I don't agree that it should be considered a major issue and I'd prioritize the good time and relaxed gaming over anything else, because our maturity and creativity should let us handle a good role-play interaction in a way that we all have fun and a good laugh at the end by still building our character's story and get our earnings for any fantasy we have in this regarding.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Salvick

[Salvick]

You know what, just ignore half of what I've said in my previous post.

I've just read the patch notes which I've been skipping for a while and always wanted to do.

Just found what's the Illegal Informer for:

Changed
[...]
- Increased meth informer cost

 

If I'd would know that then I wouldn't say a single word about the cops around the illegal areas, though I'm not sure how it works but I'll see if I find out myself too, took me a while damn, lol.

[Tomas García]

@Salvick Express yourself it's good to read different opinions because that's the best way to find the best results and so forth improve the server. 

I see your point of considering the illegal gatherings as safe area for criminals and PD a safe area for cops. That's one way of  thinking about it,  but the game master (admins) is who chooses that. In badlands there are no safe areas for anyone, neither for criminals or cops.  You compare it with a board game, so all the info found in the map is given to the players, if the game master didn't want to give you that info, there wouldn't markers on it. It's there because of the relaxed settings and not hardcore RP means that anyone that arrives to Los Santos can get that knowledge quick, instead of having to ask which usually could take weeks in a hardcore RP. So that information is meant to be given to the characters.

I did this topic and mentioned voice as one of the worst Meta, because anything you obtain by reading is static. But Voice or watching streams is live information. So watching a stream just to go kill that player or do not go to the area if the one streaming is a cop, is blunt cheating, and usually affects negatively to the one streaming, when that one is doing it to entertain those that can't be in the server for whatever reason, not to give away info to those RLplaying there. Same with voice. You can have an encounter with someone, survive to it, and suddenly before you leave 3 more people drop by and shoot you, just because the one you fought called out for backup in VOIP completely OOC.

Now that I pointed out the difference, you can judge yourself. What seems worst, static info that everyone playing in the board game knows, and that if someone uses it, still has no clue if someone will be there or not. Or live info, that you can even know where exactly each one is standing since in a stream you would see them and meta though voice, the one down is still able to see.