Feedback with issues regarding raids on public illegal spots.

[Billryethejewishguy]

Ello, this is my personal view regarding raids on public illegal gathering/chopshop spots regarding the current rules as listed and here is my thoughts/view regarding the state of it, If anyone else has feedback or thoughts regarding how to improve raids I'd love to hear it but this is from the perspective of a criminal player, I am sure cop players have grievances as well and I'd actually like to hear what they have issues with. 

 

Issue #1: No clear rules regarding raids on public illegal spots: Currently the only rule regarding raiding is "Gangs are allowed to have up to ten active hostile members if and only if the LSPD communicates a coordinated raid on your gangs hideout." But being this is not considered a gang hideout it defaults back to the five man limit per gang but then the question becomes are multiple gangs allowed to defend it because it would break the five man rule so perhaps some clarifications in that regard would be appreciated, this also applies to cops because there is no clear limit on how many people are allowed into the situation.

 

Issue #2: High risk low reward: I personally feel that the reward for holding out against a raid is non existent gangs for the most part will more often then not let the raid happen just because the end result would be the raid being pushed back to a later date within 1-2 weeks at a different hour/day, If criminals involved were able to be rewarded with a way to have some input on the relocation of the spots instead of a blanket inevitability of the place being raided again perhaps it would encourage more people to actually defend it.

 

Issue #3: Rejoining the raids after going down: This I feel should be addressed, because when you are against the hivemind and raiding multiple spots in one night and there is no way to realistically slow them down or deter a raid its demoralizing to even try to have a holdout against police because it will just inevitably continue, I could be wrong but that is what I gathered from reviewing the rules.

 

Issue #4: No risk for the cops: As far as I am aware there is no risk of failure in regards to loss to the law enforcement side if a police raid ends poorly, the entire weight of the risk of loss is entirely on the criminals as a personal suggestion adding some form of risk for the departments who have police raids end up terribly would be interesting from a outside perspective.

 

Sorry if this dragged on I look forward to hearing what people have to say try to keep it positive and constructive instead of a venting/rage thread I genuinely made this post just to give my thoughts on how to better raids for all parties involved.

[UnknownRNGS]

1 hour ago, Billryethejewishguy said:

Issue #1: No clear rules regarding raids on public illegal spots: Currently the only rule regarding raiding is "Gangs are allowed to have up to ten active hostile members if and only if the LSPD communicates a coordinated raid on your gangs hideout." But being this is not considered a gang hideout it defaults back to the five man limit per gang but then the question becomes are multiple gangs allowed to defend it because it would break the five man rule so perhaps some clarifications in that regard would be appreciated, this also applies to cops because there is no clear limit on how many people are allowed into the situation.

As I've seen number rules kinda go out the window during raids. There is times that there has been a consistent 40+ crims defending in the past which is why the PD response is usually larger than usual (generally 15-25 cops)
 

 

1 hour ago, Billryethejewishguy said:

Issue #2: High risk low reward: I personally feel that the reward for holding out against a raid is non existent gangs for the most part will more often then not let the raid happen just because the end result would be the raid being pushed back to a later date within 1-2 weeks at a different hour/day, If criminals involved were able to be rewarded with a way to have some input on the relocation of the spots instead of a blanket inevitability of the place being raided again perhaps it would encourage more people to actually defend it.

 

I really like this suggestion. As it stands there is little to no incentive for actually defending a location as its most likely going to get raided in the future. The ability to be able to influence the location of the next would be fantastic but i can see their being an issue if multiple gangs want it in different locations though i guess that could be solved in RP. 

 

1 hour ago, Billryethejewishguy said:

Issue #3: Rejoining the raids after going down: This I feel should be addressed, because when you are against the hivemind and raiding multiple spots in one night and there is no way to realistically slow them down or deter a raid its demoralizing to even try to have a holdout against police because it will just inevitably continue, I could be wrong but that is what I gathered from reviewing the rules.

This is not allowed, from any officer. If you go down, you're out for the rest of the scenarios. This causes PD numbers to constantly dwindle as they go through more locations. 

 

1 hour ago, Billryethejewishguy said:

Issue #4: No risk for the cops: As far as I am aware there is no risk of failure in regards to loss to the law enforcement side if a police raid ends poorly, the entire weight of the risk of loss is entirely on the criminals as a personal suggestion adding some form of risk for the departments who have police raids end up terribly would be interesting from a outside perspective.

As it stands there isn't much risk for PD for doing anything other than IC fears. There isn't much to really do here unless you have some specific suggestions cause im at a loss of how to make losing more...punishing? I do agree with the risk from both sides being skewed towards the crims though.

[ZaxxYs]

4 hours ago, Billryethejewishguy said:

Issue #1: No clear rules regarding raids on public illegal spots: Currently the only rule regarding raiding is "Gangs are allowed to have up to ten active hostile members if and only if the LSPD communicates a coordinated raid on your gangs hideout." But being this is not considered a gang hideout it defaults back to the five man limit per gang but then the question becomes are multiple gangs allowed to defend it because it would break the five man rule so perhaps some clarifications in that regard would be appreciated, this also applies to cops because there is no clear limit on how many people are allowed into the situation.

As a criminal I was told before that there is not a limit on how many people go to defend a public location as long as its not planned, meaning that as long as 5 gangs dont meet up and jump in the same radio channel to try and hold PD off we are good, this seems a bit off to me since PD comes with 20 people that are indeed organized and in coms. The one opportunity criminals have in this numbers game is that PD is *SUPPOSED* to do raid with GTF and SWAT but this is not the case, if they see they are low in numbers they will call anybody available, even BSCO that has no business what so ever in a raid. (We saw this today)

4 hours ago, Billryethejewishguy said:

Issue #2: High risk low reward: I personally feel that the reward for holding out against a raid is non existent gangs for the most part will more often then not let the raid happen just because the end result would be the raid being pushed back to a later date within 1-2 weeks at a different hour/day, If criminals involved were able to be rewarded with a way to have some input on the relocation of the spots instead of a blanket inevitability of the place being raided again perhaps it would encourage more people to actually defend it.

100% agree with you, all crims get out of raid are a good and fun shootout. That is more than enough for me for example but having some sort of reward if we manage to actually stop the raid (this is almost impossible as of right now) would be really nice. 

4 hours ago, Billryethejewishguy said:

Issue #3: Rejoining the raids after going down: This I feel should be addressed, because when you are against the hivemind and raiding multiple spots in one night and there is no way to realistically slow them down or deter a raid its demoralizing to even try to have a holdout against police because it will just inevitably continue, I could be wrong but that is what I gathered from reviewing the rules.

As UnknownRNGS said, this is not allowed, whoever goes down is down for good for the rest of the raid, this is the same for your common shootout as well, whoever goes down can not reengage. (Any form of down from crashing and going down to getting shot down counts)
 

4 hours ago, Billryethejewishguy said:

Issue #4: No risk for the cops: As far as I am aware there is no risk of failure in regards to loss to the law enforcement side if a police raid ends poorly, the entire weight of the risk of loss is entirely on the criminals as a personal suggestion adding some form of risk for the departments who have police raids end up terribly would be interesting from a outside perspective.

I do agree that not only in raid but in the server in general crims have ALOT to lose in every single scenario and PD doesnt, but I cant really think of anything for them to be punished with. PD is just a fun role to play with 0 risk and all reward, but I feel like that is ok as long as everything is balanced (its not atm) because without PD the city wouldnt work.

[CeeTee]

6 hours ago, Billryethejewishguy said:

Issue #2: High risk low reward: I personally feel that the reward for holding out against a raid is non existent gangs for the most part will more often then not let the raid happen just because the end result would be the raid being pushed back to a later date within 1-2 weeks at a different hour/day, If criminals involved were able to be rewarded with a way to have some input on the relocation of the spots instead of a blanket inevitability of the place being raided again perhaps it would encourage more people to actually defend it.

 

Issue #3: Rejoining the raids after going down: This I feel should be addressed, because when you are against the hivemind and raiding multiple spots in one night and there is no way to realistically slow them down or deter a raid its demoralizing to even try to have a holdout against police because it will just inevitably continue, I could be wrong but that is what I gathered from reviewing the rules.

I just want to touch base on both of these as an Officer whom also has a Crim. 

 

The issue I have with your Issue 2.... there is a lot of this Risk Vs Reward talk. What I choose to do on EITHER of my personas isn't valued by the "reward" it is valued by the amount of RP I would achieve. The way I look at it is if the PD is raiding PCP location and your gang or crew is known for selling PCP then you defend it and you "hire" bodies to help defend it. 

If you deal in Meth and don't touch PCP then why does it concern you? Now this provides another opportunity because you can merc out and tell the gangs that do deal in PCP you are willing to help them for "X"

 

Now that I talked about Issue 2 lets move on to Issue 3 :

Last night around 9 pm EST I was shot in the chest by a double barrel... this ended the raid for me. Do people break this rule? Oh yeah they do. Do only cops break this rule? HELL NO.

Is this a problem? Yes it is a big one. I'm not sure how else you can control it. I will say that the PD has a pretty good system going that we used last night. I know FOR A FACT that not a single GTF member rejoined at any point during the raid(s) from 9 pm EST and before. Knowing the members of GTF and their dedication I'm willing to bet that not a single GTF member rejoined the raid at ANY POINT. Now the reason I'm bringing up GTF is because of how PD organizes their squads. This next paragraph will explain more.

I feel like if the "leaders" of each group, for example GTF, kept track of who went down and who didn't during a situation they could insure that no one rejoins. For example, if Knox was in charge of GTF and he went down than the next person in the chain of command would step up and assume the role. Making sure that the people who were shot didn't rejoin at any point. I understand that there is a 15 min rule but lets be honest, if you get sent to prison for 25 months you shouldn't be rejoining a raid in the same evening but this is a completely different problem

Obviously this than becomes a check on peoples integrity. Last night Sully mentioned that only one GTF member went down during the initial fight. I spoke up and told him I also went down. I could of kept my mouth shut and prob continued doing the raid but there has to be some integrity in people participating and I feel like this is ultimately the problem.

[vDrop]

  

2 hours ago, vDrop said:

@ZaxxYs You mind telling me where you think GTF and SWAT are the ONLY ones allowed in a raid? SWAT, GTF & Detectives do the planning for the raids. At no point are LSPD or BCSO units not allowed to join if they were requested. Just a tip before you give off the wrong information to the community. On a side note: Back up is only requested BEFORE a location is hit, not after it starts. Units are not allowed to join in after a location has started. 
 

- Any officers that were shot down, were removed from the raid and was unable to participate any further as additional locations were hit. 

- High Risk; Low Reward

• (Meta) Rewards for participating are active or incoming. Staff will need to confirm, but its been talked about. 
• (Meta) Large Reward for stopping raid, its there. However there's a trick to it that's being missed. For Meta, I won't disclose. 
• (Meta) Site doesn't get shut down; the amount of money made off Drugs is insane. More money is made from these locations by groups than what they lose in a single defense of a raid. An unsuccessful defense of a raid is not a complete loss. Groups that capitalized off these locations made a killing before the locations were even discovered by PD and before a raid took place. Even if I remove drugs from that last part, a chop shop same concept. More money is made off of the chop shop in between the times raids take place. 

- 10 Raids? There's only been 6  Official Server Raid Events, 3 of which PD has lost. 

- The smaller raids were completed by GTF and they were being shut down with hopes and intent that the main group involved with that location were going to defend it. They however did not get involved. Units showed up to one, and the people whom "secured" that location left and just watched rather than doing anything. The amount of money they made from these locations are far beyond what they would have lost if they attempted to stop it. If they did stop it, the location would have remained open to use for X amount of time, which even more money would have been made from that location. 

On another note, keep the feedback coming please. Server Raid Events are STILL VERY VERY fresh to the city and they are constantly being tweaked to attempt balancing. You have no idea how much time and effort is being put into these events by staff and PD Staff that are trying to balance out the raids. The hardest part with balancing is numbers on whether its criminals advantage or PD Advantage. A comment was noted earlier that BCSO & LSPD Marked were brought in on that last location. 17 Criminals were at the last location, PD had only 10. So back up officers were brought in.  Only a total of 16 Officers pushed that final location, (yes including the K9 lol). PD Advantage vs Criminals (Comms). 100% agree. The 1st Location had 10 criminals, at which they took out half of the SWAT Team and 1 GTF Unit. 

 

 

 

[pebeast]

29 minutes ago, vDrop said:

• (Meta) Rewards for participating are active or incoming. Staff will need to confirm, but its been talked about. 
• (Meta) Large Reward for stopping raid, its there. However there's a trick to it that's being missed. For Meta, I won't disclose. 
• (Meta) Site doesn't get shut down; the amount of money made off Drugs is insane. More money is made from these locations by groups than what they lose in a single defense of a raid. An unsuccessful defense of a raid is not a complete loss. Groups that capitalized off these locations made a killing before the locations were even discovered by PD and before a raid took place. Even if I remove drugs from that last part, a chop shop same concept. More money is made off of the chop shop in between the times raids take place. 

Being I was someone that was asked to go on this raid but turned it down was because of that right there we have won a raid and got what they were asking for and still got nothing out of it and most of the big gangs in town give a rats ass when it comes to any drug but cocaine. when u say make a killing off them drugs i find funny because the cost of every one in a group to get gun down and then have every thing go and still be sent to jail with a fine and time after they just lost not only the guns and armor and what other shit some one might have on them. You know how long and hard it is to get some guns in this city people work really hard to gather all the shit needed to even make it for one gun let alone the ammo needed for the big raids, it's mind numbing to think about. The way I see it this isn't about the money or a reward that would be nice sure but the time spent to even get a gun and hundreds of bullets is valued more then any pcp spot. Yes we can match firepower but to get some of the guns to match that is almost like pulling teeth. Most people I know only use one or the other, I have seen people use a ranged gun or a up close one you would be a fool to have both on u because of the fact if u went down with all that the risk would not meet the reward. Meanwhile the cops can have there long rang and short ranged guns on them with how ever much ammo they want the biggest thing here is we all know this as criminals and deal with it every day but what we need is something to make up for all of that if we did hold it down and won there needs to be more then the spot stays open for some time.

 

[vDrop]

2 hours ago, pebeast said:

Being I was someone that was asked to go on this raid but turned it down was because of that right there we have won a raid and got what they were asking for and still got nothing out of it and most of the big gangs in town give a rats ass when it comes to any drug but cocaine. when u say make a killing off them drugs i find funny because the cost of every one in a group to get gun down and then have every thing go and still be sent to jail with a fine and time after they just lost not only the guns and armor and what other shit some one might have on them. You know how long and hard it is to get some guns in this city people work really hard to gather all the shit needed to even make it for one gun let alone the ammo needed for the big raids, it's mind numbing to think about. The way I see it this isn't about the money or a reward that would be nice sure but the time spent to even get a gun and hundreds of bullets is valued more then any pcp spot. Yes we can match firepower but to get some of the guns to match that is almost like pulling teeth. Most people I know only use one or the other, I have seen people use a ranged gun or a up close one you would be a fool to have both on u because of the fact if u went down with all that the risk would not meet the reward. Meanwhile the cops can have there long rang and short ranged guns on them with how ever much ammo they want the biggest thing here is we all know this as criminals and deal with it every day but what we need is something to make up for all of that if we did hold it down and won there needs to be more then the spot stays open for some time.

 

I have a very low profile criminal character. I get it. But you can't say more money hasn't been earned from these drugs than what 5 people would lose in one loss. Granted your not wrong about the value of PCP compared to Cocaine. From what I know, a REWARD is suppose to be given out if a specific criteria is met; and no I'm not talking about downing all the cops. I'll have to confirm this. The Ammo, I personally don't know the value of, and not gonna lie, working on a solution for that. lol. 

On a side note, there is no fine. 

But I love your perspective and point of view regarding other specifics because it'll help with growing and making these better for criminal players to WANT to participate. We are only 6 deep when it comes to doing large scale raids. Very big learning curve.  EDIT: By 6 deep I mean, 6 Large Scale Raids not players. 

Edited August 10, 2021 by vDrop

[CeeTee]

I have not done a raid on my criminal mainly because I'm a member of GTF and have worked my ass off to get to that position so I'm not going to diagree with any criminals opinions on raids from their point of view. I do see a lot of criminals are saying the same thing, "The reward isn't there for the risk..." I have yet to see one person throw out an idea on what the reward could be. Maybe this could be a path of option because just stating that something isn't right without a suggestion kind of falls flat.

[Randy Jones]

On the crim side of things I can see it being a waste with no reward. Because you're right, PD are going to come and try to shut down the location again in the near future. I think a good suggestion would be have a vehicle on the PD side that has a large amount of the drugs that have been confiscated from the shut down locations. If criminals are able to capture it they can take all of the drugs in the vehicle. Just a suggestion.

[Billryethejewishguy]

21 minutes ago, CKFord said:

 I have yet to see one person throw out an idea on what the reward could be. Maybe this could be a path of option because just stating that something isn't right without a suggestion kind of falls flat.

 

14 hours ago, Billryethejewishguy said:

Issue #2: High risk low reward: I personally feel that the reward for holding out against a raid is non existent gangs for the most part will more often then not let the raid happen just because the end result would be the raid being pushed back to a later date within 1-2 weeks at a different hour/day, If criminals involved were able to be rewarded with a way to have some input on the relocation of the spots instead of a blanket inevitability of the place being raided again perhaps it would encourage more people to actually defend it.

 

 

Just gonna leave that there, but its not up to the player base to decide what the reward should be these are only suggestions the main point of these consistent grievances is that the current reward feels non existent, but hawk did bring up a very good point criminals have more to lose then gain for holding these places of interests and I can tell you guns are more valued then drugs at any point in terms of bringing roleplay and material cost.   

[SeaDog]

1 hour ago, vDrop said:

I have a very low profile criminal character. I get it. But you can't say more money hasn't been earned from these drugs than what 5 people would lose in one loss. Granted your not wrong about the value of PCP compared to Cocaine. From what I know, a REWARD is suppose to be given out if a specific criteria is met; and no I'm not talking about downing all the cops. I'll have to confirm this. The Ammo, I personally don't know the value of, and not gonna lie, working on a solution for that. lol. 

On a side note, there is no fine. 

But I love your perspective and point of view regarding other specifics because it'll help with growing and making these better for criminal players to WANT to participate. We are only 6 deep when it comes to doing large scale raids. Very big learning curve.  EDIT: By 6 deep I mean, 6 Large Scale Raids not players. 

"But you can't say more money hasn't been earned from these drugs than what 5 people would lose in one loss" Me being heavily involved in the "gang"/ "criminal" scene I can honestly say that the "gangs" that have the man power and firepower to make a good effort to stop these raids are not at all making the money off drugs to pay for even one failed raid stop attempt (excluding cocaine) Think about it if we were to bring 5 people fully geared with illegal guns, armor, heals and 400+ rounds, between 5 people that's about 1m to 1.5m invested into trying to stop a raid on a place that maybe made us a few hundred thousand at most. 

Anyhow moving on, I do think a good incentive for more people to get involved in these raids would be to make it where whatever gang or group can stop the raid will be able to influence or pick where to move the ingredient or lab, because even if we do successfully defend a raid one day the very next week or so its gonna get raided and moved either way.

[Ascendancism]

2 hours ago, vDrop said:

I have a very low profile criminal character. I get it. But you can't say more money hasn't been earned from these drugs than what 5 people would lose in one loss. Granted your not wrong about the value of PCP compared to Cocaine. From what I know, a REWARD is suppose to be given out if a specific criteria is met; and no I'm not talking about downing all the cops. I'll have to confirm this. The Ammo, I personally don't know the value of, and not gonna lie, working on a solution for that. lol. 

On a side note, there is no fine. 

But I love your perspective and point of view regarding other specifics because it'll help with growing and making these better for criminal players to WANT to participate. We are only 6 deep when it comes to doing large scale raids. Very big learning curve.  EDIT: By 6 deep I mean, 6 Large Scale Raids not players. 

So lets reiterate what these drugs actually provide and we'll go on PCP. (META): So assuming NO one else is doing this you can grab 100 of each ingredient, manufacture and sell to locals and make 25-27,000. Now 5 people with firepower matching the police have now invested roughly 1m. Since ONLY 100 can be grabbed an hour, you make 30g's an hour as a gang. AND thats only IF no one else is doing it. Majority of the time you will go to these places and receive 40-80 materials which brings your profit down significantly.  So this takes 40 hours to achieve and is only possible once again if no one else is doing the drugs,  and no one gets caught selling.  Mind you this is only 5 people and not 15-20 like we saw in the raid yesterday

 

Now, this only works too assuming you're going to spend all 40 hours getting ready for a raid you heard about yesterday, but good luck.. Spend your time wisely, and do make sure not to piss off anyone else who's stealing your money!

Edited August 10, 2021 by Ascendancism

[CeeTee]

1 hour ago, Billryethejewishguy said:

 

 

Just gonna leave that there, but its not up to the player base to decide what the reward should be these are only suggestions the main point of these consistent grievances is that the current reward feels non existent, but hawk did bring up a very good point criminals have more to lose then gain for holding these places of interests and I can tell you guns are more valued then drugs at any point in terms of bringing roleplay and material cost.   

Must of missed your suggestion first time reading it. I would think that there would need to be more of a reward than just selecting the next location or having an input on where it could be. You are right  though ultimately it is not up to the player base but giving them ideas will help them figure out the course of action they want to take.

[Kota]

I do NOT think it should be announced as a server announcement, I think slipping the info IC to a few people to then spread the word is the best method. However I also think gangs should be able to do a quick meet up and plan before it all happens but zero communication during the raid with each other minus person to person on scene via shouting. It would be a good balance to PD having Live coms with each other. 

I think if crims are successful in defending a location the price of the drug is hiked for a short time following to give incentive to defend it. Cuz if the streets know PD is trying to shut it down it would become a premium product and worth more. 

I also think during raids PD should carry stockpiles of "Seized product and maybe some new type of weapons in the swat trucks only available during this time" Example maybe sticky bombs or remote explosives. If you tied this into being able to use these items to bypass hacking at bank jobs for a quick heist and quick money you would make counter hitting PD more of a incentive as well and since these items would only be gained by these events they would be very limited.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Kota Taylor