2022-01-19 Raid feedback megathread

[N0ble]

LEO: First raid, absolutely brilliant, some things that could definitely be improved upon like repping your colors instead of looking like tacticools, but that is beside the point, we knew what we were going into, and knowing that info got leaked when it did, was a shitty situation which definitely killed any advantage we may have had, I definitely do suggest that random non-gang members actually don't participate, I know that sounds real weird and sounds like I wanna cut people out of the RP and the development of this, but no. They are simply that, civilians. Not affiliated to any gangs hence why they technically wouldn't have a reason to defend these locations. 

I like to shoot cops on my crim as much as any other but if you're just a non-gang affiliated civilian you shouldn't and wouldn't involve yourself in the business of gangs.

Beside that, huge W for crims and the city, +1 for the tactical maneuvering of vehicles, that shit was fire as fuck. Loved seeing people using cars to their advantages for cover and not actually blast their SMGs or auto pistols from inside of them.

To LEO: We took an L, shit happens, couldn't really prepare for that much of a push back from the crims, I do definitely wanna say, in the end it turned into a shit show of just shooting, no focus on the objective we were given and that definitely needs to be a prio. Other than that, Raid was amazing, everyone did amazing, we got to do some of what we were supposed to, so honestly. That is a W in my book.

[TheT]

Well since no one else will be that guy, I will. I see LEO’s in here are upset about the outcome and I can’t help but draw a blank here. As a crim, nearly EVERY scene I’m a part of, there is NEVER matched force. We had 8 officers show up to a bank that we didn’t even start robbing yet. And it’s always “quit complaining and put in an IA” bullshit, but the minute crims are able to outnumber and honestly outplay the cops if I’m being honest, it’s an issue. Cops had absolutely no tactical plan going into the ingredient spot. Cops were spread out everywhere without a clue as to how many people were there, where they were, or anything. This was a huge win from crims from a tactical defense standpoint, and just a win in general. Idk if you guys pay attention or not, but a lot of crims are feeling demoralized and defeated lately. Morale was HIGH and everyone was smiling and laughing and helping each other out (like a community should) afterwards. And I come in here and I see “oh these guys are too buddy buddy”? I have actively been an advocate for gangs to not be so buddy buddy and have reasons for beef, but this was a moment for crims to come together and take a stand against the cops. I also think it was pretty cool RP that the info got leaked too. Creates stories for several people involved in that. 
So from a civ/crim, +10000 to all involved, I had a great time. I wouldn’t change it for anything, even if the outcome was different. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by jp9528

[Norton]

10 hours ago, Flora said:

Seeing as the information leak ruined everything I really think there should be an enforced rule about these raids. Maybe government can choose gangs to participate that would make sense in roleplay, a.k.a gang turfs or control of drugs and have it actually stated in rules that if your gang is NOT chosen, to stay the hell away from it. Being overrun like that was not fun for anyone on the police side of things. Usually we only have a certain limit of LEOs for these things but having to call in reinforcements when we found out what we were up against just turned this in to a Call of Duty warzone match. There were more IC aspects that ruined this raid for me but they have since been addressed, however the amount of people that had to participate in that tonight ruined any tactical roleplay and or setting up roleplay for the criminal gangs that were initially chosen for this. Also gangs participating in these should represent their colours and not be dressing up as SWAT.

TLDR: There should be a rule and a choosing of gangs that may participate in a raid that makes sense in roleplay (or other aspects) and if the gangs are not chosen they should NOT participate. 

 

PS: I think gangs should be taking more control of specific substances & turfs, because it makes 0 sense for everyone to be buddy buddy 24/7. You guys treat this place more like SecondLife than a RP server.

I agree with everything that is said here. I truly hate the team deathmatch and lack of RP it takes for the crews to obtain the information that these raids are happening. Our officers have to put in constant hours/days/weeks into obtaining the information just for it to turn into this. There is no RP when it's just OBTAINED and you go in and shoot up cops. I don't normally partake in the raids for that reason but I digress. Only reason I was in last night was because we were absolutely fucked lol. To those saying we always over run you guys so this is retribution... fair enough..  But I think there needs to be a hard cap if we continue to do this route on PD AND crim sides. Maybe even a few extra crims like 15 v 10 or something for fairness of PD training etc. 

It's an unpopular opinion and that's completely ok we're all entitled to them. However, I truly think these raids need to be word of mouth you see blacked out vehicles with air 1 get your crew of 5-6 (whatever will be allowed) and show up to the spot. I don't think there's any RP value in just obtaining it nor is there with a team deathmatch. (AGAIN unpopular opinion) but this is my feedback and I strongly dislike these raids ever since we shifted towards this type. 

[MercilessKiller]

Crim/gang Perspective On-The "MDMA" raid It was fun you guys had us setup across the map unsure of what was going to be hit first we sat in our spots, our trucks, planning on how to counter the raid we even had some garbage trucks blocking certain access points to ensure you wouldn't sneak by on a railroad or alley. The time was 20 past the "starting time of the raid" and dead silent nobody knew what was happening until the chop shop started popping shots here is the thing thought it isn't that the gangs were talking to eachother its that we "at least the 10 of us"  had 3 cars scattered across the map and when we peeled out to try and save chop shop others of course followed as would be expected and vice versa if you see a group load up and take off you'd probably follow them. Now I will agree the Raids should be gang things not civilian things PD can only have so many PD, Swat etc in the city I get that but at the end of the day MDMA or any drug will always be defended and I understand choosing gangs to defend it but thats the thing no gang "owns" a drug anyone can make them or do them sure some hold more control on certain parts but in the end its free to whoever to collect or make them so -1 to gangs controlling substances I think its fine as is. As per the raids and numbers in the raid.. Crims were outnumbered for awhile on Safroe but once it started it was a matter of time until the other gangs rolled up for support I mean sounds like something real to me end of the day yeah PD tends to outnumber us on 99% of the things we do in city from banks, shootings, jewelry store etc.. so fair is fair we had numbers this gime but again a good balance would be have 10-15 HOSTILE persons allowed to defend eachspot most drugs have 3 spots so that is 30-45 hostiles total no substitutes no swapping people LEO or Gang/Crims sp after Location A gets hit if the crims lose it those 10-15 are out and any cop downed in that fight is out the remaining cops from that fight can group up with the other 10-15 on Location B and now attack it with 15-30 depending on how many did NOT go down feel free to heal and re-armor as Crims will do the same in the downtime maybe an ammo run from buddy but he wont join the fight y'know.. If Crims survive Location A same thing goes they can go help the next spot with whomever did NOT go down. Basically 10-15 on 10-15 PD has more ammo, armour, and stronger guns for the most part (some just cant shoot straight but I still appreciate you <3) as per gangs being selected I think it should still be selected and then those gangs can invite other gangs to partake if they lack the men/women/power to make 10-15.  Only thing I would really want to see change is letting Criminals take a few things off downed Leos after we won the fight because we just used our hard earned and grinded for resources to defend something from Leos so taking some bandages, armour or even some ammo (some like 100-200 rounds total as loot) seems fair to me what isn't fair is when I'm bleeding about to pass out and have an officer yelling and cussing at me as I am saying "I just need your bandage and ice pack so I don't bleed out". I get it outnumbered out gunned but that is not unrealistic might I suggest PD acquires teargas, better vantage points then sitting on mountains in the wide open and just not covering their flank Rascals came up one side of the mountains we came up the other PD had no idea what hit them. End of the day yes too many people involved and black outfits definitely confused many people PD and other Gangs but ultimately it was fun some people of course are upset I get it I went down in the end of the fight and took almost 50 minutes to be rescued because of how many went down. +1 to the raid -1 to the numbers that showed while again I think it was realistic and -1 to the attitudes from certain individuals downed and not downed. +1/-1 to running Leo pockets after a gunfight you guys have an armoury to restock we do not if we leave the area we might lose the area so taking 100-200 rounds, bandages, armour  seems fair to me emptying your pockets to fill mine not fair 100% agree (not that i did) +1 Raids should be gang affiliated unless a chosen gang brings Crims who are NOT in gangs in to the fight as part of there 10-15 man/woman team to defend. +1 Civilians do not have any reason to be in these fights. Ultimately 10-15 per location if you go down your out not respawn if you live join the next fight and choose 3 separate gangs let them talk to eachother setup their 10-15 men/women teams and bring any outside gangs into it if they need the people, or just want too. 

[McPikey - Fast J]

I've been on both sides and I can say its not in an ideal spot for either side. Starting with the main issue being info and how its spread in an uncontrollable manner, people showing up simply for the gunfight and also general numbers.

I think 20v20 at most should be the goal, 40v40 is just a mess on both sides. There should be more strict rules and punishments for crims 3rd partying with no IC or RP stakes in defending a location. 

There was a really good suggestion I heard that a timeframe for a potential raid be stretched out over a week, forcing criminals to prep early and do proper surveillance of PD and the raid locations day to day over a period of time. The groups can work to be ready for war and take action when its happening to reduce a buildup of criminals simply waiting for SWAT, I think this would help the inevitable pileup of criminals finding out the day of to reduced uninvited gangs or crims.

People complained about the coke lab being raided with no chance to defend (about a year ago, not the more recent location change) but I can understand why PD do it after seeing a almost every raid not even last 20 minutes before the PD has to back off or get wiped out completely.  I won't blame PD one bit for doing unannounced raids if this is how most of them go.

[Bill Russo]

PD - I agree with a lot of what was said here but personally it definitely entirely ruined the fun when you know how much time, effort, and actual work goes into planning a raid. So it really disappoints me to see how things went with the leak and basically knowing it was going to be a struggle from the very start. To be completely honest things like gunplay over roleplay make me just not want to be involved sometimes. I agree with Flora. If the target getting hit is on a specific turf, then that gang, or the gang with the controlling interest in the drug, should be the ones responding. These are not meant to be an all out warfare cops vs crims. That's what gta online is for, not fivem. 

All in all. I'm disappointed and discouraged about actual rp due to these situations.

Note: I've been on the crim side to an actual raid back when the Vagos were still around. I had an absolute blast in that one. The rp itself was great. From being called in all hands on deck here's what's going on coming from Duke and the alright this what we'll do and where we're going from Tigre and then heading out there as a group rather than a mob taking up positions and waiting for it to kick off. That one was not absolute warfare. It was was like 10 vs 8 or something close to that and speaking ooc about it we all agreed that it was awesome and would love to do it again.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Bill Russo

[Timr]

Server rules have been updated with clarified guidelines for raids.

 

[DJ Simmons]

PD - Even with being outnumbered it's about strategy. You can do a lot with solid planning vs numbers. This raid was fun for me as PD. Some people got downed immediately and obviously there not gonna enjoy it. Overall, it was amazing to see the crims organization and response. I had a blast and think it went just fine regardless of PD taking the L. Also, I think it was just as important for crims to take the W. Think about the average calls like robberies. Crims are majority of the time outnumbered. Restricting the raids on drug locations to certain gangs, is in my opinion unfair. Now raids on crim owned buildings, obviously  their own should defend. Thanks for hearing me out!

Edited January 21, 2022 by DJ Simmons

[Morphiushell]

Yea we crims certainly had a plan in place and it seemed the cops got very focused on pushing into the spot which we had hoped for and set up to ambush them from behind allowing us to shoot at them from hills etc etc

[Atryus]

heres my take from what im reading. A lot of cops seem to be mad a cop leaked info it sounds? im not sure why this is such a shock or such an argument. LEO have many corrupt officers, to expect all of those corrupt officers to be Anti Crim corruption is just wild. If corruption exist it should benefit both sides of the spectrum not just be Pro LEO corruption. This in general is my main issue with corruption RP from a balance point because it always seems to weigh out where the corruption is Anti Criminal, as in the type of corruption who plant evidence, beat cuffed or unarmed individuals, throw the book at criminals so on so fourth, but when someone comes in Anti LEO corruption as in selling illegal guns to criminals, giving up cop locations for money, taking bribes, and things like this they are usually outcast and treated much harsher than the Anti Crim ones, Im not saying thats whats happening but to the specific argument that cops should not leak that, if you limit that side of corruption all corruption needs to have limits. IMO either all corruption is allowed, or no corruption is allowed, anything else just get messy and honestly toxic. This also 1000% applies to criminal's being corrupt as well. but either way, Stop fucking with Pauls drugs man! He has kids to feed! (as if he knows them)

Edited January 22, 2022 by Atryus

[Billryethejewishguy]

Wasnt apart of the raid, but from what i've been reading PD snuck the chopshop raid in without anyone knowing about that and being one of the actual groups who defended it and informed properly about it five months back and it brings feelings that there is no point in defending a location if a couple weeks/months down the road they will just roll up with no warning and seize it and being there is no "official leak" about it there is nothing that can be done per server rules against it which gives the impression as a slight against the people who were there five months back if anything its demoralizing knowing that its back to the easter egg hunt which is painfully boring or wait until some random person stumbles onto the spot sells it or if the planets align for you have one of your friends/allies stumble onto it and get some decent roleplay interactions about the spot. Again not really sure if its a popular thought but I feel like the vast majority of people are not against these public spots for drugs/chopshops but people want a system in place for established groups to have a more streamline production/distribution/package system because there are multiple groups Big Hawks Militia/ 305/ Pandas (And Others) that do major drug production and sales and having them blocked from that roleplay. 

 

TLDR: sneaky raids are disrespectful to established groups who hold that territory, Possibly allow a way for gangs to streamline drugs/chopshops so they are not rp crippled and forced to blindly run around looking for drug spots and leave those to the solo players.

[Fletch_a_Sketch]

CIV/Outside Perspective
(Warning contains Meta and I will try to showcase examples for both sides)
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TLDR the cops have gotten to experience what it is like to have the shoe on the other foot for their planned RP and I can understand where the frustration comes from... but welcome to the table of "that scenario felt like shit cause of the other sides choices"
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Multiple Illegal Locations being raided in one night/time is a foolish idea for the overall server and also arguably a sign of powergaming on the police/law enforcement end.
(This is mostly referring to the first location the police raided that night... I can 100% tell you that location would've had multiple groups interests in mind for defending and even the criminals involved in the other spots were surprised to hear that that one was hit in general)
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Illegal things may consist of multiple spots yeah?
If you want 40 criminals and 40 cops to participate in this raid (say 4 spots being hit) that also affects the overall server population for that night (80/150). Add in 5-10 EMS or extra personnel you now have 90/150, leaving 60 open spots for random people to just have fun in the city... which means people who aren't available early from work, school, etc. reasons are at less of a chance to even hang out or at least will be stuck in such a big queue (takes hours too). This problem also affects which groups can possibly control which spots and having most of the RP knowledge about it happen nearly day of is also such short notice for anyone on a work schedule to just rush home, join the server in time, get set up in time, plan out in character stuff in time... well you should get it's not enough time for day of events on such a massive scale.
Legal Factions having priority queue is one thing in the ideal list of split ratio for the server but not allowing any criminals of certain factions that want to defend a spot have that same priority queue is basically chipping away at their chances of defending/setting up (even if informed earlier in that day, maybe change that to a few days ahead and if that factions members leak it then let their boss deal with that cause that should be reason for severe punishments in that circle of trust)
I can 100% tell you that out of all the planned locations to be raided, certain factions did not get their chance to defend a spot they wanted to defend... and forcing a spot to be defended by one sole faction (happen to have been chosen)/10 people now just seems to reinforce that idea of picking favorites (I'm not against the idea of giving other groups a chance to defend a spot, especially if they haven't gotten to participate in a location raid, but it still seems catered/limiting for criminals)
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Police complaining about numbers being unfair is just a taste of what some criminals experience from the cops with the cops show of force reactions to the criminal events that they do on a general/everyday basis... Some will argue police response is based on number of cars criminals use, number of criminals involved, reputation of those criminals (if identified I guess), but there's definitely plenty of times where cops outnumber criminals... and not to mention it is weird that cops getting outnumbered in this specific scenario (or at least contributing that reason as the bigger reason they may have lost this) is what gets new rules added about raids to limit criminals (I'm not against the limit rule 100% but it could be tailored better).
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This previous sentence also leads to a new point... why are criminals being punished for their wins... between vehicle nerfs, numbers nerf in specific events, different escape route nerfs (no helicopters /harder scuba tank weight etc.), civilian rules changing after the cops lost a court case where they were in the wrong... I guess I could go on but yeah that is a plain start to it... how whenever the cops feel cheated/wronged they get server changes in their favor the next week. Whenever criminals feel wronged its always "File an IA report" where no results seem to come from those honestly, you'll see that cop you filed about back on duty on the street the next day.
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As for the money involved on each side of a raid, I can easily tell you it is pocket change (police costs) vs millions (criminals costs) (in time needed to gear up, time for stuff/rp to get geared up, available gear at any time, etc.) in costs... Criminals 1000% have more to lose in a majority of scenarios so seeing so many criminals want to fight to save things is a clear sign.
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Bill Russo "PD - I agree with a lot of what was said here but personally it definitely entirely ruined the fun when you know how much time, effort, and actual work goes into planning a raid."
I can understand time, planning, and effort going into an RP scenario just to have it ruined... there has been a number of times this happens to criminals who go that extra mile in their heists to provide something different than all black robbery with guns... and those different ideas the criminals have (with hours/days of planning involved) have been shafted on instantly by the poor police reaction to the scenario (not in all cases but plenty witnessed), where the police involved just don't even try to play along and just seemingly either force a chase or a shootout just cause.
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The one point easily agreeable upon is distinguishing colors between criminals involved... XYZ group participating in all black is confusing for police because they don't immediately know why a black-outfitted member (which is essentially similar to a police raid uniform) is shooting at them.
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The final act of this occurs when gun balancing comes into play, certain guns are obviously changed in a way, but it is really early to tell what actually got changed and which guns were affected so who knows but that could've been a deciding factor in the outcome as well.
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Towards the end though I will agree on a few points, if raids are to be structured in a different way, then they should have a more even playing field in power, through numbers (ON BOTH SIDES) or fire power/vehicles/methods used. Give Raids more time to grow in the informed groups and if that info leaks from that group, then it's their fault its leaked then they should be punished by their respective leader, (if that leaked info comes from sources outside the group well that is different isn't it)... 
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^This previous point is due to experiences in Gang Wars, or 5v5 where the playing field is more evened out... the tools at each gangs disposal are based on their connections, the fights involved in a gang war have usually even 5v5 numbers and if the numbers aren't even then that means one gang got caught off-guard/lacking... and even with that after it all the results both sides probably feel better about the fight than if the numbers aren't balanced.
Overall its clear the problems stated for this raid are about numbers involved (mentioned the point earlier so both sides have felt outnumbered at one point in RP), distinguishing colors for groups (most agreeable point in complaints seen so far) (and honestly if RP involves getting after these people (officers or criminal orgs) at a later day when you've lost the raid, why not start to go for that in some fun planning (stakeouts, warrants, etc. are your friend maybe?)), as well as the sheer number of raids that are set to occur in any given night... let some storylines develop over a week or days instead of these one night stands.