Gang War Rules need a Revamp.

[Lane2G]

Let me Start off by Saying this is one of those Topics where everyone should respond to.  Civilians, Criminals & Cops.

Since the War changes I have seen a grand total of 0 people like the rule set for fighting another group and I think a change is in order. 

-Remove the Attack and Defend rule.
it completely ruins every component of a war. You no longer have to worry about being attacked and it almost completely restricts fighting to the other gangs turf. This boils down to one gang waiting for an attack that may never come or the attacking gang watching 5 people set up on roofs and understanding if they attack it would be a death sentence. Another main problem is the ability to hide behind the rule and only engaging when its beneficial to you, time and time again this results in going from 5v5s to 5 people attacking the other group at their weakest leaving both parties feeling awful. 
The attack and defend rule also kills off any form of hostile RP that isn't just straight murdering the other gang. You take one of them hostage, Mug one of them or even attack and pull off all equal wasted attacks. The new Rule set forces gangs to only kill each other as that might be the only time you have to inflict any sort of damage.

-Make the time in Between attacks 2 hours OR 2 Hours for the other Gang to Attack and if not you are cleared to respond. 
12 possible attacks a day is very unlikely, However this equates to 2-3 Fights a day between groups.
not only does this prolong the war but it also helps to stop constant shoot outs between gangs tying up Cop and Ems resources 
I'm more of a fan for the Second option this allows 2 hours for the rival gang to regear and take the fight to you.

-Wars must be declared Face to Face and ended Face to face to have a clear conclusion 

-Wars should have terms agreed to by both Parties either OOC or IC and hold the other party to them.
This includes going straight to class 3s, coordinating if you did anything toxic, and keeping the overall war less toxic and fun for both parties.

-every war should result in something gained and something earned to prevent pointless wars.
This also means a request for peace should be accepted to stop it from becoming toxic.

[ConnorBobby]

+1

[vDrop]

+1, nice write up. 

[Denver]

+1 will clear up a lot of toxicity around wars

[Morphiushell]

I think a change was needed from how it was in the past however the rule as it is now certianly needs adjusted.

A war in its current state does not feel like a war whatsoever. How the rule is now allows someone to be hit then dictate how the war goes the rest of that day. They are able to go about their day as if they arent even in a war 0 fear of being attacked as they know by the rules they can not be attacked until they initiate or provoke. This leads to one side sitting waiting to be attacked all day.

It limits any creativity when it comes to the war ie kidnapping interrogating and what not as its very clear whos turn it is to do anything until the server reset. This leads to the same old attack defend scenario which can lead to a very unbalanced situation depending on how someones turf is set up. This unintentionally can lead to OOC issues of people being upset because one side can be seend to have such an advantage etc.

I have suggested several times that we should look to have the rule changed from being server reset to 2/3 hours. This allows the war to still be prolonged, it gives those who have been attacked or lost in the engagement etc some breathing room to recoup etc however it keeps that sense of tenstion and fear when in a war as once you have attacked or been attacked you know that they are still out there and can attack in a couple hours..

[johnny morris]

1 minute ago, Morphiushell said:

I think a change was needed from how it was in the past however the rule as it is now certianly needs adjusted.

A war in its current state does not feel like a war whatsoever. How the rule is now allows someone to be hit then dictate how the war goes the rest of that day. They are able to go about their day as if they arent even in a war 0 fear of being attacked as they know by the rules they can not be attacked until they initiate or provoke. This leads to one side sitting waiting to be attacked all day.

It limits any creativity when it comes to the war ie kidnapping interrogating and what not as its very clear whos turn it is to do anything until the server reset. This leads to the same old attack defend scenario which can lead to a very unbalanced situation depending on how someones turf is set up. This unintentionally can lead to OOC issues of people being upset because one side can be seend to have such an advantage etc.

I have suggested several times that we should look to have the rule changed from being server reset to 2/3 hours. This allows the war to still be prolonged, it gives those who have been attacked or lost in the engagement etc some breathing room to recoup etc however it keeps that sense of tenstion and fear when in a war as once you have attacked or been attacked you know that they are still out there and can attack in a couple hours..

+1

[BlinkkiNuggett]

2 minutes ago, Morphiushell said:

I think a change was needed from how it was in the past however the rule as it is now certianly needs adjusted.

A war in its current state does not feel like a war whatsoever. How the rule is now allows someone to be hit then dictate how the war goes the rest of that day. They are able to go about their day as if they arent even in a war 0 fear of being attacked as they know by the rules they can not be attacked until they initiate or provoke. This leads to one side sitting waiting to be attacked all day.

It limits any creativity when it comes to the war ie kidnapping interrogating and what not as its very clear whos turn it is to do anything until the server reset. This leads to the same old attack defend scenario which can lead to a very unbalanced situation depending on how someones turf is set up. This unintentionally can lead to OOC issues of people being upset because one side can be seend to have such an advantage etc.

I have suggested several times that we should look to have the rule changed from being server reset to 2/3 hours. This allows the war to still be prolonged, it gives those who have been attacked or lost in the engagement etc some breathing room to recoup etc however it keeps that sense of tenstion and fear when in a war as once you have attacked or been attacked you know that they are still out there and can attack in a couple hours..

+1

[lords8n]

+1 on all points.

Promoting wars being active and moving is a huge plus in my opinion. Having a gang be able to just not retaliate and take the next 24+/- hours off while the last attacking gang stays on guard until next tsunami is a giant waste of time and makes those members that are not part of the active five have to change to a stay hidden and stay clear of the gang's own set kind of mode for ridiculous amounts of time.

[TheT]

+10000

It can be annoying when you’ve ran it up back to back on a crew and morale is high and you’re feeling good but an attack never comes from the other side. 

[kurtisimo94]

+1 something like 2-3 Hrs to retaliate without the other side coming for you is much more reasonable than 24Hrs of safety if one side is backing out or ill prepared. War could be sped up and kept more realistic by settling the beef on agreed terms after a few days. Right now it is very drawn out and either side can be left waiting 20+ hrs for the other side to hit them with out anyone coming for you after your side did 1 attack. It doesn't really make sense the way things are now.

[Fishy]

30 minutes ago, Morphiushell said:

I think a change was needed from how it was in the past however the rule as it is now certianly needs adjusted.

A war in its current state does not feel like a war whatsoever. How the rule is now allows someone to be hit then dictate how the war goes the rest of that day. They are able to go about their day as if they arent even in a war 0 fear of being attacked as they know by the rules they can not be attacked until they initiate or provoke. This leads to one side sitting waiting to be attacked all day.

It limits any creativity when it comes to the war ie kidnapping interrogating and what not as its very clear whos turn it is to do anything until the server reset. This leads to the same old attack defend scenario which can lead to a very unbalanced situation depending on how someones turf is set up. This unintentionally can lead to OOC issues of people being upset because one side can be seend to have such an advantage etc.

I have suggested several times that we should look to have the rule changed from being server reset to 2/3 hours. This allows the war to still be prolonged, it gives those who have been attacked or lost in the engagement etc some breathing room to recoup etc however it keeps that sense of tenstion and fear when in a war as once you have attacked or been attacked you know that they are still out there and can attack in a couple hours..

+1

[HwRusty]

+1 
perfectly written brother 

[braydonboiii]

+10000000000

[Declan]

 

1 hour ago, Lane2G said:

Let me Start off by Saying this is one of those Topics where everyone should respond to.  Civilians, Criminals & Cops.

Since the War changes I have seen a grand total of 0 people like the rule set for fighting another group and I think a change is in order. 

-Remove the Attack and Defend rule.
it completely ruins every component of a war. You no longer have to worry about being attacked and it almost completely restricts fighting to the other gangs turf. This boils down to one gang waiting for an attack that may never come or the attacking gang watching 5 people set up on roofs and understanding if they attack it would be a death sentence. Another main problem is the ability to hide behind the rule and only engaging when its beneficial to you, time and time again this results in going from 5v5s to 5 people attacking the other group at their weakest leaving both parties feeling awful. 
The attack and defend rule also kills off any form of hostile RP that isn't just straight murdering the other gang. You take one of them hostage, Mug one of them or even attack and pull off all equal wasted attacks. The new Rule set forces gangs to only kill each other as that might be the only time you have to inflict any sort of damage.

-Make the time in Between attacks 2 hours OR 2 Hours for the other Gang to Attack and if not you are cleared to respond. 
12 possible attacks a day is very unlikely, However this equates to 2-3 Fights a day between groups.
not only does this prolong the war but it also helps to stop constant shoot outs between gangs tying up Cop and Ems resources 
I'm more of a fan for the Second option this allows 2 hours for the rival gang to regear and take the fight to you.

-Wars must be declared Face to Face and ended Face to face to have a clear conclusion 

-Wars should have terms agreed to by both Parties either OOC or IC and hold the other party to them.
This includes going straight to class 3s, coordinating if you did anything toxic, and keeping the overall war less toxic and fun for both parties.

-every war should result in something gained and something earned to prevent pointless wars.
This also means a request for peace should be accepted to stop it from becoming toxic.

I agree with you 100% with the fact the rules for war conflict have to change..

War is the ultimate show of force.. Sometimes it doesn’t have to be a prolong show of force, it can be a one day incident. 

 

With that said I feel like 2hrs between engagement isn’t fair to everyone involved, not just the two gangs at war but Ems and Cops doing all the paperwork that comes with being involved in a war scene. 3 hours seems like a legit sweet spot. In my opinion giving both gangs time to regroup or time to consider surrender, and Cops/Ems time to take a breather. I feel war should never be the first option to resolving issues but it is not something that should be looked at as a joke either. We recently find ourselves in a position where we are at war and we can’t do anything to those we are at war with because they can sit behind the rules protected selling drugs and moving around like nothing is happening.

 

Also because you are at war with someone doesn’t mean you can’t reach out OOC to come to terms if you feel things are getting out of hand. 

[RonnieLR]

+1

I like the idea, although I will say that the current rule has protected some gangs from just being straight-up bullied unnecessarily. For example, FDF tend to be, for some weird reason, the first line of defence for most new gangs. Its common knowledge to most that most people who are new to RP think that the 'South Side' gangs, who most literally kill for fun on single-player, will give them clout if they go to war with them. This results in us having to war with random gangs over some of the pettiest reasons imagineable. It was only recently that FDF were hit by a gang (I will not name) approximately 7-8 times in one evening. I do not want this to come back if that is what we are going to deal with.

Don't get me wrong, I love smoke just as the next shooter, but I'm here to RP and when the attack/defend cap was put on, Joji was able to not worry about which random is gonna roll up in the next 15 minutes. If we can find a compromise for this, that would be great.

I'd also like to stress at, since we're talking about wars, that gangs being destroyed in wars should not be making unreasonable demands. Let's be adults; if you're losing, you take the forfeit, otherwise don't enter a war in the first place. Don't put your foot down and get farmed every storm until the demand is met out of pity from the foe.

But otherwise, if the rule can be lifted on the circumstances that gangs can actually compose themselves, it would be great. 

[r3v0Lt55]

-1

As someone who plays multiple characters of varying jobs these are my opinions solely from those roles and not as an admin.

From my EMS point of view I dont want to clock on for a long shift and have to deal with the same groups fighting all the times taking up all my time when they need medical every 2 hours on the dot because lets be real if you set a engagement timer there are going to be a large majority of the players that set clocks IRL and then attack when the timer is up (happened prior to the rule being put into place constantly).  When there is constant fighting all the time generally the players who are downed get salty and give EMS get low quality RP due to this. I on EMS want better interactions so lowering a gang war attack CD would not benefit me by any means.

From Cop point of view its pretty similar. Why would I want to constantly deal with the same gangs fighting multiple times over the course of a long shift? Before the rule change I personally remember how frustrating it was being on scene for an hour,  arresting people after these fights, sending them to jail for 20-30 months, dealing with paperwork and taking a drink/bathroom break, then coming back on patrol to get calls about these same 2 groups fighting again.  Cops on these scenes are just a nuisance to every party involved and can do nothing right. Either A) I show up on scene try to figure out who the aggressor and defender are detain people make arrests take 10s of thousands of dollars from the parties fighting and then I have to listen to them bitching and crying about why I'm a police doing police things or B) we form a parameter and let things play out  one group flees we possible chase them and then the other group after getting 10s of thousands of dollars taken then bitches and cries because we didnt move in and do something sooner.

From my criminal point of view I play this game to enjoy myself and I dont want to be fighting some group every X amount of time simply because a cool down has ended and now they can and are going to attack. Some of these groups are so large in numbers they can field a 5 man for 18 hours per day every day so putting any time related attack cd essentially automatically gives larger groups the advantage. LIke RUST Chinese zergs out here! The criminal behavior for the most part is already at the bottom of the shitter. Call someone a name on twitter = War. Drive to close to some groups 6 block by 6 block "territory" = War. Look at a person the wrong way = War.  Do a job and take a friend of a friend of a gang member hostage = War. I on Jerome value longer burning RP  so for me having 6 shoot outs a night with class 3 vs 1 particular group because I called them a meanie butt is fucking ridiculous. I want there to be lulls in the aggression for story to build in directions other than shooting. I get that I may not be the norm when it comes to this but its what I personally enjoy so its why I dont want a lower timer. 

[Lane2G]

22 minutes ago, r3v0Lt55 said:

-1

As someone who plays multiple characters of varying jobs these are my opinions solely from those roles and not as an admin.

From my EMS point of view I dont want to clock on for a long shift and have to deal with the same groups fighting all the times taking up all my time when they need medical every 2 hours on the dot because lets be real if you set a engagement timer there are going to be a large majority of the players that set clocks IRL and then attack when the timer is up (happened prior to the rule being put into place constantly).  When there is constant fighting all the time generally the players who are downed get salty and give EMS get low quality RP due to this. I on EMS want better interactions so lowering a gang war attack CD would not benefit me by any means.

From Cop point of view its pretty similar. Why would I want to constantly deal with the same gangs fighting multiple times over the course of a long shift? Before the rule change I personally remember how frustrating it was being on scene for an hour,  arresting people after these fights, sending them to jail for 20-30 months, dealing with paperwork and taking a drink/bathroom break, then coming back on patrol to get calls about these same 2 groups fighting again.  Cops on these scenes are just a nuisance to every party involved and can do nothing right. Either A) I show up on scene try to figure out who the aggressor and defender are detain people make arrests take 10s of thousands of dollars from the parties fighting and then I have to listen to them bitching and crying about why I'm a police doing police things or B) we form a parameter and let things play out  one group flees we possible chase them and then the other group after getting 10s of thousands of dollars taken then bitches and cries because we didnt move in and do something sooner.

From my criminal point of view I play this game to enjoy myself and I dont want to be fighting some group every X amount of time simply because a cool down has ended and now they can and are going to attack. Some of these groups are so large in numbers they can field a 5 man for 18 hours per day every day so putting any time related attack cd essentially automatically gives larger groups the advantage. LIke RUST Chinese zergs out here! The criminal behavior for the most part is already at the bottom of the shitter. Call someone a name on twitter = War. Drive to close to some groups 6 block by 6 block "territory" = War. Look at a person the wrong way = War.  Do a job and take a friend of a friend of a gang member hostage = War. I on Jerome value longer burning RP  so for me having 6 shoot outs a night with class 3 vs 1 particular group because I called them a meanie butt is fucking ridiculous. I want there to be lulls in the aggression for story to build in directions other than shooting. I get that I may not be the norm when it comes to this but its what I personally enjoy so its why I dont want a lower timer. 

Your first two points are completely invalid when both gangs are attacking/defending each other nonstop anyways. The rule does nothing to change that, 305 Vs Lux, Rascals vs Pandas still had high volumes of shoot outs, Hence why just increasing the timer to two - three hours will result in less shootouts, Opens up more RP avenues and lead to cooler dynamics then PD cleaning bodies from gang turfs every fight. Its also infuriating when players hide behind the rule and will blatantly say they are. The hype the build up and the payoff for a war is completely killed when no one has to try worry or care after letting yourself get downed outside your house with MK2s.

Your third point is absolutely correct. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Lane2G

[Skolly717]

Hear me out… Start banning the crybabies that break character by telling a cop how to do their job while they’re leaking in the floor People shouldn’t be complaining about losing weaponry to anyone in a war because A)weapons and armor and whatever else you have of value are the spoils of war and B) it only makes you look unprofessional and shows that your really don’t give a shit about the RP that comes along with getting shot up and arrested. 

This should be done similar to the people that don’t provide any medical rp whatsoever. And leaders of organizations, whom in order to get their hideouts etc. have at least at some point proven their ability to RP, should be policing their own crews on this as well. I can say I have corrected former cartel members on their actions on a scene like this…

also, players that are concerned with losing weapons and money are not in the position to go to war with class 3’s and 4’s and probably shouldn’t be initiating a war until they are in the position to because your more than likely going to get smacked around, and I say this as a gang leader that’s lost a million dollars worth of shit in the span of 3 days… but cry about it I did not

in regards to the rules… I think 3 hours to retaliate or it’s open season. Don’t get into a war if your not prepared to hit the mattresses. I feel like there’s this expectation that you should be able to freely roam about in the middle of the war and continue to “insert latest meta grind here” and that’s simply unrealistic. 
 

 

[vDrop]

+1 If everyone involved can be arrested, All gang members seen get arrested whether identified or not. Your gang becomes wanted. That'll encourage police. lol

+1 to spoils.....something needs to be lost and earned, not just money/weapons. That's just apart of the deal of being a criminal. Its tough, but there's no turf that gets exchanged, i get why, but no turf. What's the point of war if your not gaining or losing anything of real value. 

@Skolly717 Ban Season on players getting salty would be a huge cut. You would see established gangs dwindle very very quickly. 

Even if my other points weren't a thing, I'd still be a plus 1 simply because OP wrote it up nicely. 

[Connor O'Shea]

Personally, I like it when gangs go to war. I see the opportunity for story development for many ppl involved. I have done the medical side seeing gang leaders, gang members getting injured and it brings some really interesting character development for those who happen to be on duty on EMS, as well as for those involved in the gang war. I would encourage people to play on their injuries during these wars. I know some already do, and its been amazing seeing it. Especially with some people currently involved in things, you know who you are. I am having a blast with it. I just think that if this rule does get in place for more activity, that the people involved should also play off their injuries during war more often. Like Morphius said about a "fear", if you get gunned down, give yourself an injury, that will then give you that fear of exacerbating the injury and make you want to be more careful during the time of war while you heal. 

The argument can come across, I cant play these injuries because I only have 3-7 ppl active and cant handle the attrition of war. Isn't that the point? war is attrition. You will lose weapons, lose money, and lose the ability to have ppl fully functioning. I am not saying put people in comas, but I feel that adding med RP consequences to your wars will increase the "fear" and allow things like a ceasefire or parlays overall. When you play games that have say an RTS ability, your troops get injured, you send your healed troops into battle and let the injured ones heal. You also make sure your troops are upgraded and have the proper weapons and armor needed to defend/attack. 

Before I go too far on a tangent. I completely agree with the OP and would like to see the activity more. I know that others will see this and not agree as we can't always have EMS around for these to happen. This is where you can have the local staff treat you, and you control the injury. If you want the EMS staff to get involved, you can play off an injury that was treated improperly, not to try and sue the LSFD but in an attempt to promote and facilitate med RP with the staff who enjoy that. I.E. the staff who enjoy the in-house nurse/Doctor/Surgical RP. Giving yourself an infection or things not healing properly. If you do not know how, or want to play off something for someone, my DM's are ALWAYS open to help you along with an RP. This does not mean you have to involve my character, but perhaps you want to give someone some good med RP. DM me, I will help you on playing off an injury. Can give you resources. It is why I have tried doing IC classes to help ppl get the knowledge to play it off.

I have made this completely medical and I apologize for that lol. I think it is an untapped RP tool that can add so much depth to med RP. Think of it this way, war is on, someone gets kidnapped, something terrible happens. That person plays that injury off, now the gang that caused the injury, has the bragging rights of what they did. This can facilitate IC issues and reasoning. This will leave characters vulnerable, even in the strongest of gangs, allowing for negotiations due to X amount of injured members and such. I am about to go on a ramble. but wanted to get these thoughts out there. 

Overall, OP was well written, I understand all points, and look forward to seeing what gets added/changed.

[Brendan Thomson]

1 hour ago, Skolly717 said:

Hear me out… Start banning the crybabies that break character by telling a cop how to do their job while they’re leaking in the floor
 

 

people who break character to complain about police response are my biggest annoyance.

Sorry don't really have a solution for the gang war stuff, but non stop attacks aren't fun for anyone.

[Lane2G]

16 minutes ago, Brendan Thomson said:

people who break character to complain about police response are my biggest annoyance.

Sorry don't really have a solution for the gang war stuff, but non stop attacks aren't fun for anyone.

3 hours is plenty enough time to decide if you want the war to go on or not, and if your loosing no longer is their 1 attack a day until admins have to step in.

[Timr]

This would be great if every gang in the city was on the same page about reasonable escalation, but they aren't. Every war for the past 2 months has turned into a report spamfest. At this point, I personally think all wars should need to be approved OOC by admins or some consortium of gangs after the side that wants to wage war has shown the escalation of events to the point of war.

[Lane2G]

1 minute ago, Timr said:

This would be great if every gang in the city was on the same page about reasonable escalation, but they aren't. Every war for the past 2 months has turned into a report spamfest. At this point, I personally think all wars should need to be approved OOC by admins or some consortium of gangs after the side that wants to wage war has shown the escalation of events to the point of war.

I know of plenty of cities that require OOC approval from the staff team, However i wanted to stay away from that route due to the effort staff would need to put in. Rather then approving wars how about Terminating them if they start for no reason? I can see it being very confusing unless you are giving the whole history of Ordeals because a bunch of small beefs can lead to a war imo if the build up works.

[TwoTaDile]

+1 

I think it promotes a good backbone to something a lot of people participate in. I also want to maybe put on the table another gang meeting between everyone who crims to get everyone on the same page about these rules. I feel as though meetings really help air complaints, form soultions, and ultimately allow for better clarity for all parties involved.