Police Reviving

[Serena]

At the risk of bringing up a... I guess a very touchy subject... I wanted to express my thoughts after having quite a bit of time now without having police revival as an option. I have played on both sides of the coin as EMS and PD since the changes and personally, feel that PD should be allowed the same SOP's back as before. Meaning, when EMS are on duty, they have priority on calls and perhaps PD shouldn't even be allowed to revive or help someone downed at all, if EMS are on duty. 

I don't care if it even means that as PD I have to drive someone down to the hospital in order to get them treated, rather than be able to help them up right there on the ground. But I do not like the current system in place where I have to watch people die on the road because they didn't commit a felony or some kind of crime and I cannot help them. This would not happen in the real world. Realistically I could give them first aid, but tbh I wouldn't even mind if I just could drive them to the hospital so they weren't shit out of luck.

Obviously same SOP's could apply as before, we have to prioritize our first and foremost job as PD. But I hate having to just sit there and watch this poor guy who just went through an unfortunate situation lay there on the ground and bleed out, with the only hope being that an off duty EMS will clock on. Not everyone is being a shitlord and not everyone is breaking a rule or not valuing their life that goes down... 

[TiLLeR]

I really do appreciate the feedback and I can empathize with how it's difficult to watch players die however prior to this change there was virtually no death on badlands.  Honestly a bit of risk adds an element of realism (albeit small) but more importantly results in people valuing their lives a bit more.  I suspect the majority of the time that it's more difficult to watch is when it's from the actions of a hostile player and the person truly is a victim.

This change sought to solve a few problems:

1.  Cops were becoming primary EMS.  Less people were playing the faction and many people were leaving EMS to play cop b/c they could do both.  With Badlands 3.0 - Cops need to be able to focus on cop work and less on the EMS side of things.  This change encouraged more people to apply/reapply to EMS and be part of the problem.

2.  Add an element of risk.  It is Badlands after all.  There should be some death b/c it's realistic.  It also helps the economy (a necessary thing albeit difficult sometimes)

The only reason that cops are allowed to revive felonies is to avoid the suicide to avoid RP/Charges players - which we all know we have.

Personally I'm open to further suggestions to help solve the problems listed above.  But going back to the old system is not an option.  We need to evolve.

The benefits of the new system

- Personally I love that med kits fail and sometimes you have to transport.  Transport opens a lot more RP - EMS RP has been AMAZING since this change.  Not that it was bad before but it's on such another level I feel.  Not only does the transport add realism but it often de escalates situations which is a great side effect.

- Cops are not chasing EMS markers 24/7 - they are able to focus on crime - which we have a slow days but also really busy days where the focus is needed.

- It demonstrated, and still does, how important EMS is to Badlands.  We need EMS for their services, but also their RP expertise in this area.

So I don't have the answers.  I support your post, am open to alternatives but they just need to take us a step forward and not back to how it was before.

[Serena]

I agree with all you've said Tiller. There were people who saw that PD was able to do everything that EMS could and felt that there was no need to be EMS if you could be PD. This isn't the right thinking, I do follow you on this. I still believe there is a happier medium we could come to from where we are now and where we were before. Specifically for situations like I often face where a true victim is now just laying on the road while I watch.

All it would take is some SOP tweaking, I think. Maybe some ideas that others could come up with, but some quick thoughts I had are:

• If EMS are on duty, PD does not revive whatsoever. This will probably cause death, EMS gets busy. They could always still ask for help, but PD are only allowed to perform CPR.

• If there are no EMS on duty, PD prioritizes their job before handling an EMS call, which is where they can only transport the person to the hospital. This will also cause death, but at least in moments where I just play a sad violin for the guy who went through a series of unfortunate events, I could actually help them out instead.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Serena

[Tomas García]

I have a post waiting to be added in here, but I just realized I'm not sure about one SOP of PD right now. So before I post, I would love to know the answer to this.
Can PD pickup an injured person (someone that is down) and bring them to a hospital to send them for treatment with the current SOP?  Is it strictly forbidden, encouraged, doesn't say anything about it?

[Chase McCane (Fludiddy)]

Only if: a) Player committed a felony and EMS isn't clocked in b) Player is the only EMS on. c) Player is an on-duty cop and no EMS are currently clocked in.  That's the only incidents that PD can transport to send to treatment.

Edited September 1, 2018 by Chase McCane (Fludiddy)

[Tomas García]

@Chase McCane (Fludiddy) thanks a lot for that info. Also it was good that I got that because I went around the forums and read some discussions that are quite handy and in a way part was in the post I had ready to post. Also common sense tells me to shut up. But hey, I'm me and I already say on the post signature. So here it goes. Sorry for the wall of text.

- RPwise, a cop shouldn't be forbidden by SOPs of provide assistance even not having proper knowledge of medicine if someone is injured badly and no EMS arrives. So I would say the balance would be to allow cops to deliver injured people to hospitals and push them into the NPC medics if there are no EMS in town or after contacting them EMS are overloaded and they can't make it there on time.  And I said allow or even could be encourage, not force since that seems to be something you guys tried to change with the new SOPs. And also RPwise it's quite a fail that cops have the ability to help in certain situations and others don't. I do understand why that mechanic is there, but I think the SOP should keep ALWAYS do in this situations(the ones in the current SOPs) and helping out citizens when no EMS is on or they are too busy to make it on time IS encouraged but not forced.

- The element of risk of Badlands and people have to value their life more.... again, disagree in some settings. Maybe some take more care now, like Europeans had to do back in the day because no EMS used to be around, but that also made the interactions and activities way more dull during those times. And another example is my character. I do value Tomas life a lot. Rarely do silly things or crazy sessions, but focusing on the main part of the time I play, I rarely die for fucking up IC. I die because of some GTA dynamics. Last two was slipping in a hill where the slope didn't seem to be an issue but small slip turns into a big slide and dead. Lucky got EMS. The other was hunting, I had no clue that with so many bullets in the riffle when you get the last skin you need, it won't shoot again. Found out trying to defend myself from a wild cat. I can RP it jammed yet for sure that wasn't  NVL. Didn't get EMS.
I understand that in some situations characters have to die but I don't think it should be arbitrary like that. I think someone that goes hiking and needs help, values the life of his/her character a lot, should get priority over, some 4 guys punching each other out for third time in the last two hours. Maybe the press E to call medic, which is something that only makes sense if emulates an NPC calling because they see someone down, is implemented further. Instead of calling right away it could open a msg box* to type what the NPC can see, for example "Someone flew out of the car after they crashed". And EMS shouldn't go blind to calls, which sure makes more easy and realistic the interaction to find out the injuries. That could also help determine when they need to alert PD, which is better for timing reason and way more realistic.

- About the markers, I suggest to bring the cross back on the map for PD, The message too, or maybe a softer one where tweeter/ooc/log  appears. That way is not intrusive, cops that aren't busy can attend the scene to secure it or even investigate. Because I think EMS neutrality hurts the balance that seems to be achieved in other ways. A criminal should think it twice before requesting medical help if they were doing something shady in a bad area. Instead of always getting the free pass. Not saying to change EMS neutrality, saying that if markers are around calling EMS could bring cops. Which sure generates more RP and  it's more realistic. While since @TiLLeR mentioned economy is a better way to balance economy than just by cops not healing when no ems are around. Less arbitrary more to the point.

- Police RP shouldn't be cops vrs robbers only. Plenty of servers focus too much into that and the civilians that abide the law sometimes are forgotten. There are already many situations in which PD, yet, can't do much to help civilians. Let's keep those that they can do, possible. I don't think the SOP should be black and white, it could encourage helping out someone instead of pursuing a crime some other, but at the officer's discretion. Like if things are calm, PD patrolling, getting someone to a hospital because it's not going to get assistance otherwise, sounds like it should be done. But if PD is involved in a shooting or strong situation, then the officer should prioritize and leave to focus on the PD part.

- Note that in all this post I never said PD should revive. My point is that they should be able to help out when no EMS are able to do it, by transporting to a hospital and send to NPC doctors.

Balancing things up sometimes takes time. Don't be afraid to go back and forth a bit till the good point is reach. I think little time has passed since some of the most important recent changes but soon things that are working and not so much should be more clear. My point is the more people value their lives the better, but hope we don't end up with something too calm or people only doing crazy shit when they go into wild mode with nothing to loose in their inventories and wallets.

* The idea of the message box/txt has been suggested on the LSFD forums. this is the post:

 

[Flori]

I will try to not repeat myself cause this has been brought up before, but this is my opinion, and a clarification on the EMS side of things:

- If you bring back the markers, plus the possibility to bring patients to the hospital, then PD inevitably (unless prevented by SOP) will continue to replace EMS when it's not available, it's going backwards into the old system and I agree 100% with Tiller that tweaks and changes can be made, but to move forward into another direction to improve and expand RP possibilities.

- EMS "Neutrality" doesn't have an impact on any balance. Criminals get away with stuff, EMS can not call PD for something they didn't witness based on he said she said or just the fact that the patient is down in an illegal area. Even if EMS notifies PD for gunshot wounds, stab wounds, etc, (like it would happen iRL, discussed before) once word gets out that EMS does this, then the stories of the patients will change, there will be no more gunshot wounds, it will be all: "a local punched me", "I fell off a roof", blah blah. So, the criminals that DON'T get caught by police and need EMS assistance, will always get away with it. EMS is not here to assist PD catch criminals. 

- Regarding PD being able to bring patients to the hospital when there is no EMS on: I think that from an RP perspective, this is necessary, however, only for patients that they see at a scene they show up to, or even casualties of a shooting, if EMS is not on, people that call 911 should just re spawn, period. Again, markers and alerts for EMS should not be brought back (IMO) for the reasons mentioned above.

 

[Serena]

2 hours ago, Flori said:

- Regarding PD being able to bring patients to the hospital when there is no EMS on: I think that from an RP perspective, this is necessary, however, only for patients that they see at a scene they show up to, or even casualties of a shooting, if EMS is not on, people that call 911 should just re spawn, period. Again, markers and alerts for EMS should not be brought back (IMO) for the reasons mentioned above.

 

So you mean there is no indication via a marker like EMS get, but rather that we would just happen upon it? I actually don't mind this, since it would put a lot of emphasis on people working together to help one another. A person driving by could stop and call 911 for them, just as it would happen irl. I like!

Edited September 1, 2018 by Serena

[ImVexal]

To be honest, We could do without seeing EMS calls. As mentioned above its very frustrating responding to a call (etc a car crash) and this guys lying there on the deck dying and i can't help him. If i ain't busy, I have no issues in the world taking him to hospital jeez you can even keep the $350 for transportation.  I fell that if we attend any 911 call or if I pass someone who is down that we are "Sanctioned" to pick them up. This will prevent actively going out looking for EMS calls. I'm sure SOPs could come in and cement the brickwork to this suggestion     

[Tomas García]

I should shush when some people that have been around for so long make the same point. But since my point is to try to help,  not just argue for the sake of arguing. I have to ask since I really can't make my mind around it and understand it.

About what @Flori said, I agree. PD doing healing no, no med kits for PD. Yes CPR and yes transport to hospital. But I have to disagree in this other part:
- EMS neutrality shouldn't be broken. I agree with it. But then we need something to balance and make things more real. Either by EMS SOPs or by markers for cops. So cops can be called in situation that they could be needed before hand and not when there is barely no time left to save the patient. RP wise it would make sense for it to be from the start of the call when it's on dangerous/criminal locations. Also the suggested message for EMS calls (post on LSFD section), would help EMS to call as they respond to a that wouldn't need markers for police.

-If people don't RP injuries properly, it's their loss. It's like when people meta and you can't prove it. Unless @Serpico can do magic and have a option to inspect why the player died, our character will never know the real injuries if the other player doesn't state them. And certainly I think it should stay like that, players should RP, no need of tools to take that rp away or to create drama between 'I'm checking that you have bullet wounds and you are telling me that you got punched'. That's not good for RP, could be good for reporting someone for disruptive behavior since it impacts negatively the experience of other players: the EMS who doesn't get the right info, PD who can't show to do their job, other citizens because that powergame lie does make them go back to normal right away, when they probably should take way longer to be healed.  I even did a post (No cool things because of abuse), and this is another case. Just because people lie, ruining part of the RP, should we limit scenes that could  be quite cool. I know that plenty of good players around will still RP their real injuries, don't mind cops showing up. I don't think making hard rules to deal with those that 'cheat' helps the quality of RP at all when they limit valid and good RPlays in the process.  And we know eventually some people will learn that scenes can be quite cool if they see a few players RPlay them properly.

- And regarding markers, just because they are there doesn't mean PD should go to them. They should go to them in if the following criteria happens:

1. The PD unit is currently in code 4 and nearby. A unit in code 4 that might be required to assist in a chase or other police action should prioritize heading towards the other officer that might need assistance over EMS markers. Only when the unit that might need assistance confirms that situation is under control the PD unit in code 4 can go back to assist on the EMS markers.
2. PD assisting without EMS request to EMS markers in illegal areas still have the scene control over EMS while if the area is away from illegal areas the EMS should be the one in control unless there is an active threat or crime been committed and witnessed live by the officer.
3. Upon arrival to a EMS marker, PD should secure the zone. Calm down the patient. And the next step will be contacting EMS to ask if anyone replied to the call. If there is no EMS online or if there is none available to respond to the call on time. Then the officer can proceed to CPR the patient, role-played as stabilizing him in the most basic way, and then transport to hospital to send for treatment.
    

if that's too complex about markers, then don't do it. But in PD SOPs also encourage PD contacting EMS to let them know they are available to assist in calm situations. Yet... I think this will create chaos. Because it's quite hard to know when the other department is quite busy and doing calls in with the phone or jumping into discord when any of the factions are overloaded usually it's a pain in the rear for them. Still think that because markers are there doesn't mean that PD should jump into all of them. Only those that make sense. Like for example marker on the highway, probably is car crash or someone run over, so assist to cut the traffic makes good interactions between the two factions.  As it is... without markers or message to EMS as the call is made, EMS can only ask for assistance upon arrival and giving the timers that would mean that PD assistance might arrive by the time EMS already had to do the healing.

[Serpico]

Well I’ve been tagged, now for my input. Since we started the server it was always intended that one day pd would lose the revive ability. We are not going back. From dev view we don’t want pd running around stabilizing or reviving players. That if why we have ems. If none are online, we are ok with people going to the light. Not saying we won’t make tweak as we see fit, but making it clear that changes where pd is going to be responsible to revive or stabilize players more is not what we want. You may not notice it or feel it. But the change has been a great improvement.