Body Cam Evidence

[Samantha Hatfield]

A lot of us within the community have mixed feelings regarding the new civilian rights on body cams not being admissible in court anymore. As stated within the announcement here:

"This change was made to level the playing field for those who can't record and open up more opportunity for rp story, excuses and lies"

Some people have had many different opinions on the matter, on how this will lead the criminal cases in the future. My question is what is you're general feedback with the change? Is there anything you would change, or improve? I for one am a fan of the change but that is aside the point of this post.

Let's keep it simple, and clean. Ladies, gentlemen, and etc.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Amberlyn Noelle-Amos

[DimitriPetranko]

Heyo! I have negative feeling about the recent changes. I am not one with a powerful brain, I am known to fall through to the underworld at a moments notice. However for important stuff I do clip on body camera even if it makes my brain suffer. A recent incident where I was shot at outside integrity and returned fire infront of police but was still charged with Ass. W a deadly really shed light on this for me. If I was able to use bodycam in court I could get the charge dropped and even possibly make some money off it. But none the less the officer involved will most likely not think about it again. So all in all I think even with a shitty brain like mine it should be up the the citizen whether or not they want to run body for certain stuff, not the state.

[DaddyJoeBiden]

3 minutes ago, DimitriPetranko said:

Heyo! I have negative feeling about the recent changes. I am not one with a powerful brain, I am known to fall through to the underworld at a moments notice. However for important stuff I do clip on body camera even if it makes my brain suffer. A recent incident where I was shot at outside integrity and returned fire infront of police but was still charged with Ass. W a deadly really shed light on this for me. If I was able to use bodycam in court I could get the charge dropped and even possibly make some money off it. But none the less the officer involved will most likely not think about it again. So all in all I think even with a shitty brain like mine it should be up the the citizen whether or not they want to run body for certain stuff, not the state.

+1

I know of many people that would have been subject to power-gaming, and in city careers ruined had it not been for bodycam shedding light on a situation and clearing their name. I think while yes, those who are unable to run bodycam may be at a disadvantage, if others around them are able to use admissible bodycam that they too are protected by such.

It should ultimately be up to the individual citizen, and not the state on whether or not they want, or can be able to run body cam for not only their own safety, but also for those around them. Not having bodycams drastically increases the odds of false imprisonment, and is a liability to all.

[RockfordIceBenders]

I, as a tow truck driver ALWAYS ran a body cam, as it would give me legal protection if I needed it. You never know when something will go down, and you need evidence. While I get that some people may not be able to run a body cam for various reasons, I feel like this can lead to a slippery slope. I feel like not being able to run body cams , or gopros, or something, can lead to a lot of he said, she said situations, and possibly even reduce rp opportunity for court cases. While I personally have never pursued court, I have let people know on scenes if they needed body cam evidence I'd be willing to help. So even if some aren't able to, there are those around who can and do/ would of able, and thus can give those who can't needed footage for a legal defense. While I can see why the change was made, to make things fair for all, I do see some downsides to it as well. -1 to the changes from me. I'd say at least give some ability to film in game, to keep the potential rp with court there.

[Erwin]

3 hours ago, RockfordIceBenders said:

I, as a tow truck driver ALWAYS ran a body cam, as it would give me legal protection if I needed it. You never know when something will go down, and you need evidence. While I get that some people may not be able to run a body cam for various reasons, I feel like this can lead to a slippery slope. I feel like not being able to run body cams , or gopros, or something, can lead to a lot of he said, she said situations, and possibly even reduce rp opportunity for court cases. While I personally have never pursued court, I have let people know on scenes if they needed body cam evidence I'd be willing to help. So even if some aren't able to, there are those around who can and do/ would of able, and thus can give those who can't needed footage for a legal defense. While I can see why the change was made, to make things fair for all, I do see some downsides to it as well. -1 to the changes from me. I'd say at least give some ability to film in game, to keep the potential rp with court there.

+1 right here, as a tow truck driver I was using body cam as a way to essentially record a seizure of a vehicle etc etc. and for my own protection. Now without it, I had a situation where I almost lost my clean record because I was stopped at a light, and my truck must of rolled back a bit, or maybe I just waited too long but a local got out of his car and started shooting me, I drove off and the local followed still shooting so I stopped and shot back. I stayed in the area and cops flew in and detained me. The only thing that saved me was they got a way more important call. (This happened twice, but the first time they just towed the local away and left me alone)

[Samantha Hatfield]

My main concern as of many, is the fact that PD/BCSO are direct witnesses to a crime and ect.

And I've seen situations, where officers take the word of other officers more seriously then what 4,5,6 people have stated happened. Even if you are a off-duty officer, I've had my word in situations like that be taken more seriously then multiple people around me saying something different.

When putting it through the court system, I'm curious on how we will play out the balance of he/she said. But this brings up the great RP opportunity of "lying" and "being a corrupt cop" etc. But this may also lead to some people, not wanting to deal with a corrupt cop in RP if they're word goes better. ((NOT CORRUPT OOC))

[Mia]

You still have the option of filing player reports and IAs with video if someone is power-gaming you or behaving in a way that is not becoming of a whitelisted faction with powerful tools beyond what the regular player has (like direct witness). That hasn't changed. It's a form of feedback just like the suggestions thread is and there are teams of people who investigate these situations and work to keep the factions fair and healthy for the server.

[RockfordIceBenders]

23 minutes ago, Mia said:

You still have the option of filing player reports and IAs with video if someone is power-gaming you or behaving in a way that is not becoming of a whitelisted faction with powerful tools beyond what the regular player has (like direct witness). That hasn't changed. It's a form of feedback just like the suggestions thread is and there are teams of people who investigate these situations and work to keep the factions fair and healthy for the server.

And we appreciate it a lot. More than you can know.  I realize that there are reasons this came about, and I'm not questioning that, and I don't know the reasons. Just stayed some of my personal concerns, bit I do see the point of corrupt cop rp and such. I don't play a criminal character so it doesn't affect me a when ton, just loved the ability to fight something in court with video evidence and such. 

[Kota]

I 1000 percent support the staff on this choice to remove external body came footage.

To be fair... I think more the issue here is using a 3rd party source to record that may not be the same or that everyone is also using at the time that is not an in game mechanic is ult at the end of the day meta gaming. 

It's not exactly fair to go down the route of using body cam evidence from a situation to accuse someone that then said accused could not also have body cam evidence of their side of the events. 

If there was a in game mechanic that would record I would say it would be fair for all. Since there is not. It's ult meta gaming. And the experiment was done to see if it would work and honestly it just creates less RP and more SHOW ME THE PROOF. So good riddance lets all get back to roleplaying shall we.  

[DouglasLewis]

Personally, I do not like this change at all. I think that not allowing body cam may make court cases more interesting and more of an argument, so the court case rp could be improved by it. However, I see it being annoying and possibly problematic in all other areas. A good example took place yesterday, the first day of the change. Some people came to our place of business and ended up firing off shots before leaving. Only one or two people who worked there witnessed it and saw the individuals. However, being it was fairly brief, they could not remember all their clothes and cars models. Had we been able to take a quick look at the body cam, we could have seen the exact outfit the person was wearing and the car they got into. It turns out that we ran into these people later in the night, but never could confront them as we couldn't use the body cam. It would have been impossible to use one of the other options as mentioned in the change, like binoculars or the smartphone camera. I think these options will almost never be viable in a "heat of the moment' scenario, and as a result of not being able to reference body cam, a fun rp scenario got completely shut down. I don't think encouraging lying amongst crims is going to be fun at all. We have already had scenarios where people will do something to "cross" us or disrespect us, and then we try to communicate with them, and they just swear its not them. Because we had body cam evidence back then, we were able to still address it accordingly, however, with these new changes, that's is all people are going to do. Gang beefs are going to turn into he said she said nonsense, and we'll never be able to have a justified beef, civil conversations, or closure when it comes to these things because we will just be wondering if we just got into a beef with the right people. Again, shutting down RP scenario's being that gang wars do not go off word of mouth, rather proof of one group wronging the other. In addition, I don't like giving even more sentencing power to police. Now, they are the only ones with legitimate proof of anything, and as Amos stated, officers will side with other officers before letting the crims lie there way out of something. Police typically never go along with lies anyway unless it's about something very petty like speeding or selling drugs, which already didn't require body cam. I was personally wrongfully sentenced twice this past week and body cameras are the only way to show that what the police did was totally wrong. These changes, in my opinion, will lead to more powerful police and less gang vs gang RP as we would never have legitimate proof of anything. Lying will not lead to better RP, it will lead to less RP as people are always going to deny the bad things they do, and it's going to be nearly impossible to obtain proof.

[ShesElectrick]

I think a lot of people are missing the point of the change. This is only for RP purposes, not actual player reporting. You can still report police via an IA if you feel you've been done wrong and it can be investigated. 

People are going back and watching footage they've recorded to catch things they may have missed and using it as in-game knowledge. This is not acceptable. 
Aside from that, when it comes to court RP and that kind of thing, this definitely paves the way for being able to try and lie your way out of a situation. There is only good things that come from this when it comes to actual RP.

 

Also how many of you are wearing the bodycam prop on your actual character so it's realistic that you're recording? :')

Edited July 29, 2021 by ShesElectrick

[Belle Barnes]

+1 to this change. I completely agree with this, as I think @ShesElectrickis making amazing points, but also because I think that bodycams hinder RP and even goes so far as to make some court cases almost one-sided. 

 

On top of that, recording to protect yourself for OOC reasons is still being completely encouraged, and that is the only value I ever saw from using bodycams.

[Samantha Hatfield]

5 hours ago, ShesElectrick said:

I think a lot of people are missing the point of the change. This is only for RP purposes, not actual player reporting. You can still report police via an IA if you feel you've been done wrong and it can be investigated. 

People are going back and watching footage they've recorded to catch things they may have missed and using it as in-game knowledge. This is not acceptable. 
Aside from that, when it comes to court RP and that kind of thing, this definitely paves the way for being able to try and lie your way out of a situation. There is only good things that come from this when it comes to actual RP.

 

Also how many of you are wearing the bodycam prop on your actual character so it's realistic that you're recording? :')

Actually never seen that happen, but then again I'm not one to go around and look for that. Seems like it was a common issue, as I've talked to some people in discord about.

Appreciate the response!

[CeeTee]

It is known that I personally have aa issue with this change. 

I have ALWAYS hated the "COPs word is more valuable than anyone else" . I think THIS limits RP not Body Cam footage. 

You go to court because X has a lawsuit against Y. X claims that Y hit him with their Police Car and cause extreme body injury. Y says nope that didn't happen. Y wins because they are a cop.....

Now how about this: 

 

X has a lawysuit against Y. X claims that Y hit him with their Police Car and caused extreme body injury. Y gives their story on what happened. X provides video evidence of the cop Y hitting him with their car... Y provides evidence of the same thing BUT what X didn't see in his body cam was that across the street there were 3 guys with AKs pointed at the Officer and he was attempting to get somewhere safe.

Yes, Y still hit X and X has a valid lawsuit but it was not malicious and Y was not attempting to murder X. 

 

I just don't see how removing Video Evidence of something is the correct move and how a "cops" word has weight so much more than anyone elses that they do not need to provide proof. 

Maybe I am just missing the part where Video Evidence removes a level of RP/Story telling. I would argue that by having video evidence of a situation would create MORE chances for a story to develop into something more than he said she shot him when in fact he shot her after they shot them but cops show up on scene and either charge everyone or charge no one. 

[vDrop]

The unfair advantage doesn't make sense to me. Just like reality, not everyone is recording at all times, however the majority of the time, even court based. Body Cam footage if being used properly can also protect the person that is being accused by having evidence that protects them of claims. Can RP it all you want, but evidence is evidence, I think not allowing Body Cam footage creates the opportunity to create straight up BS for a situation more than anything since the proof of body cam isn't admissible in court. Essentially encouraging everyone to lie doesn't seem like a feasible justification. To add to this, I do agree that you should NOT be allowed to simply and easily go back and watch your body cam footage to gather evidence. The only time body cam footage should be used is for court cases, or with initial intent to gather evidence on an active case (investigation units), not a random warrant, pursuits, or robberies to "identify" someone that you just lost. 

[Storrent]

"Hey I have footage of this guy beating me into a pulp and stealing my money"
"Sorry bud, Joe over there can't afford a camera so you can't bring yours to court"

Imagine justifying this to anybody holy shit

[DimitriPetranko]

On 7/29/2021 at 9:59 PM, CKFord said:

Maybe I am just missing the part where Video Evidence removes a level of RP/Story telling. I would argue that by having video evidence of a situation would create MORE chances for a story to develop into something more than he said she shot him when in fact he shot her after they shot them but cops show up on scene and either charge everyone or charge no one. 

I really enjoy seeing you harp on this point, from my experience in the city bodycam evidence has brought me more RP. Personally I hate the lying shit and I don't think it creates RP I think it snuffs it out. If X group is stealing cars from Y group and Y Group catches it on bodycam, goes to X group and they try to lie about it. Y goes to X groups command and boom the proof is out. This could lead to a war, an ultimatum, nothing, or the start of a business relationship. Without bodycam if you goto someone who leads a group and tell him their members are being disrespectful to yours but have no tangible evidence, they're gonna take their owns words over yours. Snuffing out most RP outcomes besides "Lets shoot the fuck out of them and steal their cars" 

This all too realistic (As it happened to me twice) scenario shows this won't just hinder police vs citizen word, it hinders criminal RP aswell. 

 

Thanks for reading! 

[D E M 0 N XIII]

-1
Bring back bodycams.
I think body cams should be allowed. Meta from bodycams is an issue with or without the official item/overlay as people who meta are going to do it regardless...
If someone's PC isn't able to handle it, that's not anyone else's problem and, as much as it sucks for them, taking it away from everyone else seems redundant and one sided. 
I don't have a powerful machine but I'm able to record and stream. 
"This change was made to level the playing field for those who can't record and open up more opportunity for rp story, excuses and lies"
I don't see this as opening opportunity for RP at all. The RP is there with and without it. - people can still make excuses and lies with or without it but having the hard evidence, in my opinion, increases the RP because as far as they try to lie their way out of it the evidence is there in the end, just like real life.. 

It also takes away from minor incidents that people often overlook.
For instance; city infrastructure.
IRL if you're at a red light, and that red light detaches from the street pole and falls on your vehicle causing damage and injury the city has a law suit against it.
How many times has a street light fallen apart for no reason. I've been taken off my motorcycle because a street light fell apart as I approached the intersection.
If I had a body cam active at that time, would it not be good for RP for me to get ahold of a lawyer and press the city for compensation of damages and injury?
 

[Yama]

I think it's important to separate sharing bodycam footage IC and OOC. To my understanding, recording and reporting power-gaming, bugs, and Internal Affairs for the factions looks to still be encouraged, but using that footage in-character is invalidated. Correct?

I can understand how having that footage can really flatten the RP, there are some gestures and actions that just cannot be done visibly and within the limitations of the game. So nixing bodycam footage in official disputes to reduce meta-gaming makes sense logically. However, as with any video evidence, I think it should still be accepted with a level scrutiny. Nobody should be taking a filmed account as 100% fact, there are events leading up to and past when that video was recorded that are unaccounted for.

For the most part, I'd say the majority of people in this city are pretty good at interpreting the differences between what the RP is calling for and what is displayed in a video. But I also realize it's very easy for even the most scrutinous viewer to take a video out of context. Which is where I'm a little confused on how this affects the city rules. Are we completely prohibiting the use of video in-character?

I think stopping all video sharing in any aspect seems a bit rigid. For one, this means that Weazle news could never really advance past the Newspaper era. Most of our community are great story tellers, but I know there are some really good opportunities for actual video to be used, there just needs to be some guidance as to when it's reasonable.

[DimitriPetranko]

Is internal affairs not IC? 

[dK_]

On 8/9/2021 at 7:05 PM, DimitriPetranko said:

Is internal affairs not IC? 

Yes and no, depending on the situation,

[cewiad]

PUMP!

 

I was thinking of making a new thread regarding bodycam / dashcam or in general using video evidence against others. I would suggest that if the IC uses evidence against others, it should also be able to see the other person that this person probably has this.
Excluding supervisory authorities such as police / security workers, etc.

Yes, I know that it is also possible "just in case" to tear out evidence, such as taking a dashcam from a car, or tearing a person's bodycam / destroying a cctv.

But my main point was that if a person uses video evidence as a civilian, his/her camera should be visible as a bodycam, a go-pro in a helmet, the dashboard camera in the car can still be a so-called "not visible"

Now it feels like, people is secret filming and am not sure what USA laws says about secretly filming other person, but where i am from its forbidden in laws. But there is also some laws, which allows you film in public area, without counting as secret filming and some privaty areas need to have signs also that "we are active video filming in this area".

Because, if i use a camera photos as proofs, i am actually takeing them with phone that people can see, that you probably just shooted a picture.

And it gives a little spice more an RP side than "hey did you know i had a video recording on".

Not everybody can be a some kinda James Bond 007 who has pencil videorecorder on pocket, i hope you get what i mean with this.

Other wise i would need to install somekinda jammers everytime i would be some new area / new people, that they couldnt even upload the shit in cloud, because jammer stopped the signals and rip off bodycam, eyeballs and even car dashcams

Hopefully you get dat point, how it sometimes ruins da RP moment when u have hidden pocket cam.