Rule to hide numbers for police

[Andrew Trigger]

First off, I know there are going to be a lot of counterarguments to this. I'll love to read them all.

Make it a rule that police must keep player numbers hidden. Only times they can re-enable them is when there is an RDM/VDM situation.

Possible counterarguments w/ rebuttals :
1. Police can just break the rule, no one would know. : It is a whitelisted job, let's hope the PD is only accepting and training reliable players.

2. Will create he said she said accusations. : Yup. Got me there. Would love to hear any possible solutions to this possible problem to this possible idea.

[errorlink]

No one should be using numbers period.

[Storrent]

In a perfect world, these numbers wouldn't exist. Everybody will live together in harmony and we'll have sunshine and rainbows and people yelling at each other before they empty three clips into the person who insulted their haircut, not after. But this isn't a perfect world. These ID numbers exist for one reason, and it's for player reports. You seem to understand that much, but the issue arises when the victim cannot hit F7 quick enough. I personally was RDMed the other day, and the killer announced themselves after with a quick "fuck you", but never actually showed himself. If I were playing with IDs off, I would not be able to make the report.

Police officers are trusted members of the community, and *should* not be using player ids to metagame. If you feel like they are, please make an IA report.

Finally, another counterpoint. How would we enforce this? We cannot force every officer to livestream with a staff member watching to prevent metagaming. It's an honor system, and police officers are expected to abide.

[ImVexal]

Where did this stem from if you don't mind me asking?  Bad experience with the cops or just a brainstorm that it should be disabled for cops?

 

 

[Chase McCane (Fludiddy)]

How else are we supposed to enforce server rules for it's fun for everyone?  Nobody enjoys being RDM'd/VDM'd.  I don't know a single police officer that enjoys nabbing someone and just as you're about to book them or arrest them they log on you.  Have to have those numbers just to and only to do that.  Like I said in another thread -- you're just going to have to trust the whitelisted PD to do their job with integrity.  I, myself, am not a full fledged patrol officer yet.  But I can tell you so far every officer I have encountered works with 110% integrity.  Again, if you feel that you have been mistreated or metagamed, then by all means file an IA report.  Most of us record, so we can uphold the responsibility we have been given.  And those numbers are an integral part in that.

 

You have to remember.  We are on a public server with no character slots.  There have been over 30,000 players.  This isn't a completely whitelisted server of 50-100 people that have easily identifiable characters (at least the problematic ones).  There has to be some method or some way to hold people accountable to uphold the peace and the server rules - and this is that way.  I for the most part play with them on for the ONLY purpose of reporting.  Otherwise, I pay no attention to them.  The only player id's I can vaguely remember are the ones that I have reported.  Sorry for the soap box.  But it's just my opinion.

[ImVexal]

28 minutes ago, Chase McCane 28642// Flu said:

How else are we supposed to enforce server rules for it's fun for everyone?  Nobody enjoys being RDM'd/VDM'd.  I don't know a single police officer that enjoys nabbing someone and just as you're about to book them or arrest them they log on you.  Have to have those numbers just to and only to do that.  Like I said in another thread -- you're just going to have to trust the whitelisted PD to do their job with integrity.  I, myself, am not a full fledged patrol officer yet.  But I can tell you so far every officer I have encountered works with 110% integrity.  Again, if you feel that you have been mistreated or metagamed, then by all means file an IA report.  Most of us record, so we can uphold the responsibility we have been given.  And those numbers are an integral part in that.

 

You have to remember.  We are on a public server with no character slots.  There have been over 30,000 players.  This isn't a completely whitelisted server of 50-100 people that have easily identifiable characters (at least the problematic ones).  There has to be some method or some way to hold people accountable to uphold the peace and the server rules - and this is that way.  I for the most part play with them on for the ONLY purpose of reporting.  Otherwise, I pay no attention to them.  The only player id's I can vaguely remember are the ones that I have reported.  Sorry for the soap box.  But it's just my opinion.

Could not have said it any better!

[Thorgs]

5 hours ago, Vdept said:

1. Police can just break the rule, no one would know. : It is a whitelisted job, let's hope the PD is only accepting and training reliable players.

Well, where do I start? I guess first off anyone can break rules and how would we know? Yes, we do vet applications with what info is given we can only go so far and hope people like you give us reliable information to check a lot are denied for various reason?  And our Officers that train have to fill out a second application and not everyone gets accepted but once they do they give hours upon hours of training to new recruits. As stated above its a Public server and some Officers do play with numbers hidden it's their choice. But its also like stated its for reporting purpose and we encourage ALL our Officers to record when on duty or off its a method of protection for them and to make server report of violations, unfortunately not everyone can and we also have a great Admin staff that also put tons of hours to try and catch RDM/VDM, DB. Bottom line is no one is perfect and sometimes things dont always happen as they should but I believe there are checks in place to catch what we can and the public is encouraged to report if they feel any wrongdoing.  

[Andrew Trigger]

Lot of saying this as if I am against the LSPD here, I am not.. I'm just looking to give the citizens/criminals a small bump, to be able to blend in with locals when trying to run/stay hidden from police. This isn't an I hate cops inspired suggestion.

 

4 hours ago, Chase McCane 28642// Flu said:

How else are we supposed to enforce server rules for it's fun for everyone?  Nobody enjoys being RDM'd/VDM'd.  I don't know a single police officer that enjoys nabbing someone and just as you're about to book them or arrest them they log on you.  Have to have those numbers just to and only to do that.  Like I said in another thread -- you're just going to have to trust the whitelisted PD to do their job with integrity.  I, myself, am not a full fledged patrol officer yet.  But I can tell you so far every officer I have encountered works with 110% integrity.  Again, if you feel that you have been mistreated or metagamed, then by all means file an IA report.  Most of us record, so we can uphold the responsibility we have been given.  And those numbers are an integral part in that.

 

You have to remember.  We are on a public server with no character slots.  There have been over 30,000 players.  This isn't a completely whitelisted server of 50-100 people that have easily identifiable characters (at least the problematic ones).  There has to be some method or some way to hold people accountable to uphold the peace and the server rules - and this is that way.  I for the most part play with them on for the ONLY purpose of reporting.  Otherwise, I pay no attention to them.  The only player id's I can vaguely remember are the ones that I have reported.  Sorry for the soap box.  But it's just my opinion.

 

5 hours ago, ImVexal said:

Where did this stem from if you don't mind me asking?  Bad experience with the cops or just a brainstorm that it should be disabled for cops?

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Storrent said:

In a perfect world, these numbers wouldn't exist. Everybody will live together in harmony and we'll have sunshine and rainbows and people yelling at each other before they empty three clips into the person who insulted their haircut, not after. But this isn't a perfect world. These ID numbers exist for one reason, and it's for player reports. You seem to understand that much, but the issue arises when the victim cannot hit F7 quick enough. I personally was RDMed the other day, and the killer announced themselves after with a quick "fuck you", but never actually showed himself. If I were playing with IDs off, I would not be able to make the report.

 Police officers are trusted members of the community, and *should* not be using player ids to metagame. If you feel like they are, please make an IA report.

Finally, another counterpoint. How would we enforce this? We cannot force every officer to livestream with a staff member watching to prevent metagaming. It's an honor system, and police officers are expected to abide.

 

Edited June 20, 2018 by Vdept

[Thorgs]

19 minutes ago, Vdept said:

I'm just looking to give the citizens/criminals a small bump

And no one is saying your against it there just stating facts plus you have to be close to see numbers its not like I'm at one end of the street and I can see your number at the other end of the street even if I bino you I don't see the numbers it's your actions that I'm looking for, IE when selling drugs I see what your wearing. I mean if I'm close enough to see your number what bump are you looking to get?? Even if your number was hidden when your that close to me I can clearly see you again the number is for reporting purpose only.

[vDrop]

My best example:

I patrol without the numbers, I cannot tell you enough how many times I've attempted to pull over a local (attempted to) or started conversations with locals and thought I was being ignored, because I don't have the numbers above. The only time I activate the numbers is when I feel a possible report is going to need to be filed, but I try not to assume the worst. I never identify a person with the numbers. And you bet that i called those attempted traffic stops over the radio, just to call them off. 

Another Example:

Was chasing somebody, they popped into a bush. I accidentally still had the numbers on from a previous incident so I knew that person was in the bush, however I walked away, because if those numbers were not there, I would have walked right by him. So I continued as if I never saw the numbers. A lot of good officers will do that as well. Its about generating a fair play system for everyone. I've lost my fair amount of chases because of the no numbers and I'm okay with that. 

Just remember, if you ever feel like the numbers is being abused against you, and you have enough evidence to support it. File a report, its not going to hurt anyone, but it would provide training where /if needed. 

[monk]

Yes I and most LSPD members will not use this kind of stuff. If you feel as if someone has IA report that. I can't begin to tell you how many numbers I've seen in bushes at drug areas but I would never do anything about that because as @Drop mentioned I can't possibly know you're there unless I physically saw you go there. And I personally like the numbers on because say someone runs me over they're gone before I can press F7 so they just got away with VDM. But I will NEVER use IDs to gain an advantage. As @Thorgs said if I'm completely down the street from you unless you make a very "unlocal" movement (which is what most people do by sprinting everywhere) that's the only time I would even pick up on "Hey, maybe that's not a local." because they really only sprint when scared. But the bottom line is we NEED numbers for reporting. But as I said if you suspect someone of doing it say something just as I would I don't care if it's my best friend if he uses a number for something he's not supposed to he's getting a complaint. 

[Andrew Trigger]

So, I did hear that police did try to play w/o numbers. I'm glad to see multiple LSPD members say what they have done to avoid using numbers to advantage. Once again I am restating that this isn't a suggestion I made to suggestively bash on the PD, never had a bad experience regarding PD using the numbers, just an idea that came up that I thought I would put out there to hear thoughts and if I was onto something, have it implemented. Thanks for the replies

[AtomicGinger]

I generally play with the numbers off because less on the screen is best for me. (Almost rhymed.) BUT having numbers turned on CAN help with having interactions with civs. If I'm driving down the road and notice a civ just walking down the street with a number above their head, I'd be inclined to stop and just talk with them. Introduce myself and answer any questions they may have. Using the number as a form of good meta (yes folks, there IS good meta. Not all meta is bad) could cause a great interaction. Especially if said civ in this scenerio was brand new to the server. If I had numbers off and just drove by him, there would be no interaction at all. Interaction = RP. That's what we're here for, right? 

[Gasman]

Sometimes its just easier to keep track of who is talking in a crowded area, especially if there are unfamiliar faces. But generally yeah, numbers off for me.

[King Quez]

Honestly numbers in game lead to a lot of meta gaming, and honestly isn’t much point to having numbers above your head.

[James Johnson]

38 minutes ago, King Quez said:

Honestly numbers in game lead to a lot of meta gaming, and honestly isn’t much point to having numbers above your head.

Well unless I know a player well from the past I cant tell who's talking without the indication and it really screws it up.

[DanielBos]

6 hours ago, King Quez said:

Honestly numbers in game lead to a lot of meta gaming, and honestly isn’t much point to having numbers above your head.

I am yet to see this being used to meta. 

[Kota]

Sometimes we have to use numbers for reports. But officers should be turning them off for the most part to prevent meta. There have been times when I didn't have them off and saw someone in a bush by number and just walked on by. Even though I knew they were there. Point is regardless play fair. Numbers or not. 

[TiLLeR]

40 minutes ago, KotaJon91 said:

Sometimes we have to use numbers for reports. But officers should be turning them off for the most part to prevent meta. There have been times when I didn't have them off and saw someone in a bush by number and just walked on by. Even though I knew they were there. Point is regardless play fair. Numbers or not. 

Clarification - you think they should be turning them off.  There is no rule nor requirement.

[FoldedTom]

I always assumed it was a side effect from drinking the tap water in this fine City. 
I hear you can buy Pills labelled "F7" that sorts it out instantly

on topic and ooc surprised it isn't forced off for everyone, it really helps with immersion and passengers can really block your view of the road ! (if you don't swallow the F7 pills haha)