Can we draw a line with RMD?

[Tomas García]

I'm starting this post to check what is the general view in the server about what's RMD and what is not. I think it's important for the community to debate on it, and the admins to clarify it better. Since Badlands RP is not hardcore RP but I hope it doesn't turn into a shooter game.


I'm going to use a few incidents as example to start the debate:.

• First situation that it's a bit on the edge. Player A is driving around at normal city speed, passes by player B that aims to them and says "Keep moving or I'll shoot" and without giving more than a couple seconds player B shoots player A. I don't have a recording of this but happened just like it's described, and this post is not about what happened is more about clarifying how things are to know the rule better.

 

• Second scene, it has two parts.

1. I was chilling out under the shade of the peach tree in my car, when two players come pull a gun on me and tell me to get away. I simply do, after having situation one a few days ago, don't even stop to talk or try to RP, I just press my keys and move away. Sadly I don't have a video of the peaches gathering because you know... peaches I wasn't expecting that and try to avoid recording hours of peach gathering
2. Since there are no cops online, I simply choose to do the white knight  thing. So I go to the peaches place, park on the back and wait. The players show up, one of them is in voice asking if anyone is around, since there is a broken down player car left by the peaches sell point. I'm up on the roof trying to get a decent angle and when I'm good for it, I start the RP. You have the video here:

 

Wrapping this up. This is not a post about whining or been a sore looser. Hey, I even have to agree that how the second situation could even consider good karma. What this post is about is the rules, making them a bit more clear so we all understand them and we play within them. After all, RP and GTA are games, and like in Poker for a game to be fair all players should know the rules at the start of the game. I understand that some situation sure need to be judged by admins, but I would love more detail on the current rule.  I don't like to push the rules, but,  like most of the players, don't like to go down just because others push them too far.
 

 

So the current rule is:

Quote

 

RDM (Random Death Match) and VDM (Vehicle Death Match)

You must state clear and reasonable demands to an intended target. If a player complies then you must come up with a valid reason within RP to kill them. Do not use your vehicle as a weapon, the only time you may run someone over is if they are in your direct driving path and shooting at you.

 

 

Possible reads of the situations used as example with the current rule:
 

Scene 1.

- So in the first case, surprised about the aggressive interaction, I guess I didn't step on the gas quick enough. That could count as a valid reason to kill me, I guess ((If the rule works that way don't know how it enhances RP, seems nearly GTAO, in my opinion.))

- Other read is that in fact was a RDM.

 

(Even not too good RP, I took it as the first option, and moved on. But it matters for how I reacted on the second case.).

 

 

Scene 2. There are many possible ways of playing the scene if I focus in the rule as it's written down.
 

- All was there was some RP and then shots were fired.

- Since 9315 was just moving around and never spoke till the shooting happened that one could be called RDM, because the only RP he did was pulling his hands up. And he sure has voice since he spoke after the shooting.

- I could have fired on 9315 since he did take some time to pull his hands up.

- Or even, since they pulled a gun on me, at the gathering peaches area, I could have just moved away to a safe distance and then just shoot them down, right there. ((Once more, that's not much RP in my opinion...))

 

 I guess there are many other ways the rule could have been understood. My point is that Badlands RP is meant for RP, I know it's not hardcore RP but as GTA works, it's very easy to aim to someone without a gun, swap and fire away. That simply doesn't happen in RL, it takes more time. And RP wise, playing a super trained shooter that draws fast is powergaming, but once again I'm gonna guess that's not considered in the rules.

  Personally, I can live with it. I just want to know what is the rule exactly to I can play along that. But truthfully I hope this post starts a debate that helps the RP in the server instead of just creating drama.

 

[SneakyAzWhat]

Definitely interested to see everyone's discussion on this, I know a few people were talking about it in game earlier. I think we can do better and will write up a proper response for this post. This is a challenging problem to tackle because we need to ensure the aggressor and the potential victim or subject of aggression both have a fair shake.

[Alex White/Grandma Elsie]

As someone who got in a kind of similar situation earlier, but it was me who shot, I have to say it might've been you know us caught in the action and not thinking thoroughly, like you wouldn't have time to think: "yeah should I say x or x or should I just open fire?" you know its just the heat of the action while mid of RPing.

For example, you are being robbed and you got have your hands up, suddenly you try to reach to your gun, now if you look at this in GTA you can't do that due the lack of animation (and if you did its a bug) , but in real life you can, and if you do sometimes you would either get shot and die, or you will shoot the robber and this will depend on the character you playing and their personality will they cower and hear the robber/criminal demands or will they fight back even if its costs their life? its just up to them.

I am just saying while being in a game it feels LIMITED, animation wise and plus other elements that might affect it.

I hope this is a good debate/discussion! 

Edited September 18, 2017 by Fox White

[Thorgs]

3 hours ago, Tomas García said:

- Since 9315 was just moving around and never spoke till the shooting happened that one could be called RDM, because the only RP he did was pulling his hands up. And he sure has voice since he spoke after the shooting.

I dont think he RDM you. You were the aggressor he has every right to defend himself. Now since you made reasonable demand and they complied you have to find another RP reason to kill them i.e get in your car or i will shoot you or get on the ground or i'll kill you, Stop moving around or i will kill you(by you allowing him to move about got you killed), so easy for you to come up with an alternate RP to kill them!! And your option on the Peach field Yes if they let you go and then you moved up to a tree and shot them no RDM they were the aggressor then to not leave after they held you up is stupid on there part they dont know if you had a gun so sticking around they got what came to them. This is light RP they made the initial RP to hold you up cause in real life if they let me go and hang around Dead men cant talk i would shot them dead!!

Here is another thread similar to yours look at the response's and video there  

Also if your in doubt whether it is RDM/VDM submit your video let the Admins look at it and decide they have the experience 

Edited September 18, 2017 by Thorgs

[Tomas García]

Thanks for your input, @SneakyAzShiite @Fox White @Thorgs . I hope more people join the conversation since this is matter that concerns us all.

Just a reminder. The examples are there just as an element to explain the debate. Sure you are welcome to use them, but the point is not to get the personal opinion on that exact case. The point of this topic is to draw the lines that limit or explain the RDM rule better.

Regarding to what @Thorgs said about the scene two. Not here to discuss if that was RDM or not.  The point that matters is for example, how much time you give someone to comply with what you requests. Because I was shot in the example 1 withing 3 seconds of the request made to me, I even was in a car so there was no way I could shoot back. But a better situation would be standing. Let's say that as a citizen you have someone robbing at you at gun point, face to face. The robber requests your hands up, and shooting back is as easy as raising your hands up... In that case if the rule stays this way, the robber has a good reason to shoot you down if you don't raise your hands right away, since you could kill him in a blink.


@Thorgs Thanks for the linked post. It clearly shows how a player adapted to what seems it's the way things work. Also the player doing the robbery in there was patient with what seem to be a new player since he didn't pull the hands up. In my humble opinion, acting like if you don't know the controls, just to then nail some good shots, it's not good RP at all.  Because another way the robber could adapt using the rule as you seem to explain it, would be to shoot the guy in the moment he steps off the bike instead of raising the hands.  But doing it that way has a big draw back.

The drawback of these two situations. Turns the RP into a shooter game, which is fine in several situations but I don't think shootouts should be that common. In fact kills the RP, because even if I want to RP the robbery, no matter in which side, I will have to go towards the shooting just to avoid getting shot.

[Thorgs]

19 minutes ago, Tomas García said:

how much time you give someone to comply with what you requests. Because I was shot in the example 1 withing 3 seconds of the request made to me, I even was in a car so there was no way I could shoot back

Ok lets put it this way unless they put a time in we can assume reasonable amount of time now if you say they only gave you 3 sec well thats not reasonable 10 sec is more reasonable but you video if you recorded it would know and at that point you was probably driving away which in that case they needed to further RP in order to kill you. If they read the rules they should know X puts there hands up! Sorry I went into RDM rather the amount of time. But every situation is different i dont think its an all out shoot out on the server you will have those borderline ones thats why it is important to record if you can. Just curious when u was in your car were they in front of you or on the side? if there were indeed in front you run that ass over on the side proves to be more challenging and again not everyone has the same reasonable thought process in time so it does make it difficult to decide hope this helps.?

[BrandonM]

I feel like the core of the problem is that there just arent enough cops on duty at any given time. I know that a large wave of police have been brought in recently, but that doesn't really help when there's so few ranking officers to train them at any given time.  The fact that the rookies can't be on duty unless a ranking officer is also on duty is great in concept, but lacks severely when there is no ranking officer on.  Like, in an instance where there could be 4-5 cops on patrol handling things like this, their abilities are squashed because there's not a single ranking officer on as well.  So we go from having potentially six cops online to handle this, to having zero because one person isnt online.

Just my two cents.

[Thorgs]

4 hours ago, BrandonM said:

I feel like the core of the problem is that there just arent enough cops on duty at any given time. I know that a large wave of police have been brought in recently, but that doesn't really help when there's so few ranking officers to train them at any given time.  The fact that the rookies can't be on duty unless a ranking officer is also on duty is great in concept, but lacks severely when there is no ranking officer on.  Like, in an instance where there could be 4-5 cops on patrol handling things like this, their abilities are squashed because there's not a single ranking officer on as well.  So we go from having potentially six cops online to handle this, to having zero because one person isnt online.

Just my two cents.

Ok BrandonM just want to touch quickly on your opinion then get back to the topic.

Problem is not Cops there could be 6 on duty and this will always happen cause you cant always be where a potential hold up may happen. Even if a ranking officer is on the 4-5 you suggest dont get free roam of the city they are being trained so they have to stay in the general area of the trainer. Now back to what this thread is about

What Tomas is asking as per the rule what do you feel is reasonable time to comply before you shoot? 3 sec, 10 sec, etc. etc

Edited September 18, 2017 by Thorgs

[Anton]

The second scenario is interesting, because a very similar thing happened to me. Was up on the roof, held up several people and just got shot. Don't think it's right, since they never knew if you were alone or you had an accomplice for example on the other side of the road pointing a gun at them too. IMO they simply didn't value their life and was not afraid to die at all. Plus you can see he had his hands up and switched to weapon. In that moment you could have shoot him and he obviously didn't care about it. Don't know if it's RDM but it's definitely wrong in my opinion. He was in clear sight switching to a weapon while at gunpoint and he didn't care if he or his buddy dies.

[Johan]

49 minutes ago, Muroko said:

The second scenario is interesting, because a very similar thing happened to me. Was up on the roof, held up several people and just got shot. Don't think it's right, since they never knew if you were alone or you had an accomplice for example on the other side of the road pointing a gun at them too. IMO they simply didn't value their life and was not afraid to die at all. Plus you can see he had his hands up and switched to weapon. In that moment you could have shoot him and he obviously didn't care about it. Don't know if it's RDM but it's definitely wrong in my opinion. He was in clear sight switching to a weapon while at gunpoint and he didn't care if he or his buddy dies.

This is exactly what I am thinking as well.

If in real life you're being pointed at with a gun you wouldn't try to reach your pocket/holster or whatever to get your gun and shoot them. But in this second situation Thomas could've told them to "put your guns on the ground" so in that case they wouldn't have been able to shoot. And if they "didn't put their guns on the ground" then Thomas would have had a reason to kill them. Idk, just my opinion and excuse my bad english.

[Flori]

its interesting to hear what everybody says about "in RL people would do this or that". Obviously there are the typical reactions we would expect, probably the ones that happen like 90% of the time, but we should be open to other scenarios that might occur without limiting the rules to that 90%. (that grey area that probably gives the admins a few headaches)

in-game: The real challenge is to be creative in ways to make sure the victims are not able to react in the ways the perp wouldnt want them to, try to anticipate as much as possible to leave them defenseless, like @yNzx_ suggested in this thread and @Thorgs suggested in the other post.

Regarding response time... thats a bit tricky too, some ppl are slower than others in terms of the game's mechanics, or even slow just in reaction (like me lol im like what? whats going on? eh?) so i guess imo that would depend on the patience of the perp. Maybe instead of setting a time frame, the perp could literally say ill count to 3 or whatever so there is a very clear order to follow and easy to determine later whether if they complied or not within that given order.

 

[Amos]

I think this needs to be solved.

You shouldn't be able to 'whip' your gun out like that, it's just not realistic and creates no chance for RP...

It's either shoot or be shot.

"Hands up" animation needs to have a grace period where you are unable to use your weapon or something, I'm not a developer so I'm unsure how this would be implemented.

 

But realistically you can't get your hands from "up", to unbuckling your gun, removing safety, aiming and firing within 1 seconds, it's very unrealistic and doesn't make good RP.

[Tomas García]

Thanks, @BrandonM @Muroko @yNzx_ @Flori @Amos for joining the conversation, and thanks to those that keep giving their opinion or simply reading the thread.

The issue @BrandonM mentioned, more active cops, sure will help the server and it's there, but it's not the reason for this thread and maybe will need it's on thread if anyone has any good ideas about how to solve it. In the first situation that I used as example, I was a LSPD, I'm still in training but was patrolling around. And there were plenty more around. So police it's not always the solution. Simply didn't have time to process what was going in, much less to call it in dispatch and sure not enough to get out of the car, much less shot the guy.

One reason why the active cops don't matter for the RDM/VDM rule, it's because doing such it's not RP. It's not about been detained and going to jail, it's about been warned, temporally banned, or worst. But certainly the punishment is not what really matters. The real reason for this topic is so those that play fair, no matter if your character is a good or bad guy, don't have to suffer by those that push the rule to the limit since it's not so clear in my opinion. It's not about changing the rule so there is no hostile situations, those are perfectly fine, it's about making those hostile situations balanced and more into RP than just shooting.

The thread is not about were those situations RDM or not.  @Thorgs said about 'the exact amount of time', which is part of the things that could be defined better, but not the only issue on hand. It's about rewriting the rule so it's more clear and we all know better where the limits are.

@Muroko If you keep reading the post you will see what's Quick drawing, and I think that's what might have happen in my case and probably on yours. In mine I don't have any prof but it's very likely that the 'silent' player was doing meta by using voice with his fella and telling him to keep me busy. And the way he shot me down was Quick drawing. The moving around was even better than in the example I recorded since it's make it very hard for me to shoot while he will have the same accuracy, just making it even more OP (overpowered).

@yNzx_ Your English is more than fine, don't worry about it. I have to say that you got a point. Same as the advice that was given in the post that @Thorgs shared. But in hindsight it's very easy to think on many other ways thing could have gone, sure I'll learn from that. Tho, I don't have a way to check if they obey or not, since guns are not visible in character and they could have an arsenal on them. We have to deal with the in-game limitations, that's why I'm trying to find a better way to have the rule tuned up, so it becomes more towards RP. I'm not trying to 'kill' the interactions with guns, just think they should have more RP beforehand. The player that shot me was 100% in arcade mode, the only RP he did was press X once.

I think @Flori has a point. It's very easy to say in RL I would do this.. First of all it's your character not yourself. Personally I couldn't piss off anyone with a gun in RL even if he is not pointing at me. But I sure can play a bad ass character that stands up in such case, or simply a dumb one that doesn't realize of the risk. Yet, I think the issue is how it's played. I think there should be a small window to let the other react. Pushing buttons quick is not RP in my opinion.

@Amos Do you mind sharing the clip you showed me? I know it was used for a player report but the issue is fixed and settled down. And even the video has a few glitches recording is still a good example of quickDraw.

------------------------
Marking a split because this is my opinion about the rule and not  replys to before posts.

As the rule stands I will split it in parts and analyze it from my point of view. Sure it's not going to be perfect, but that's why this is a open thread so everyone gives their opinion and the sum of all probably will give us the best results.

" You must state clear and reasonable demands to an intended target."
This part is clear and it's there to create RP, so no one approaches another player and just attacks for no reason. But in my opinion it's too much robbery based. Not all the situations are like that. One random example that comes to my mind. People are hanging around, Player A is messing up with Player B, calling him things or just talking shit for a while. Player B could throw a punch and Player A might end up on the ground.  Even personally that's not much RP to me, seems like a fair situation were there was no demands set on place before the 'attack', and Player A might start crying out loud 'RMD'.

"If a player complies then you must come up with a valid reason within RP to kill them"
Directly connected with the first part of the rule, ensures that players don't kill for no reason if the other player goes along with whatever is happening. Tho it's a very open to interpretation. That's why @Thorgs marked the 'reasonable time to comply'. But it even goes beyond that. If you take a look at the video from the post that @Thorgs shared, you will see what I'm talking about (Posted right bellow, 0:20 and beyond). 0:22, Thief requests hands up. He doesn't get any response till 0:27 and it's OOC through voice "How do I do that?". It might be legit, since the player might be new to the server, but it can be also fake to act like a noob, which happens way too often. 0:38 the robber does OOC in voice too "Just press fu**ing x man"(btw in a quite soft tone, not even angry, thumbs up for keeping it polite). From 0:42 and so on, there is the risk of a quick draw (will talk more about it on under the video). 1:23, it's late but the quickdraw happens, the player been robbed changes from hands up to shooting. In my opinion if this is allowed, can kill RP, since the thief did his best to stay in character, even he had to use OOC. And someone that 'seem' to do not know the controls well turns into a quick drawer and nice shooter. The post about it shows how the thief probably is a good player since he takes the advice and does his best to use a safer mugging style. But he could have simply gone other way based on the actual rule. He could simply shot the player down from  0:22 to 0:41 since the other player didn't comply with his demand till that point. That's one reason why I think the rule could be improved.

" Do not use your vehicle as a weapon, the only time you may run someone over is if they are in your direct driving path and shooting at you."
This is quite simple. And even I hate RDM and VDM, I can't fully agree with it. As things are, anyone standing outside with a gun has way more chances to kill a player inside a car than the other way around, since at the moment not using the car would mean having to get out first and then get the weapon. So someone inside a car has clearly the down side of the situation. For me The VDM should be about how you enter a scene. If you go full speed and ram into everyone in the sidewalk, that's no roleplay at all, since there was no previous scene or context for such action. But in situations that the car is barely moving or stopped, and you are in a scene, by that I mean there is interaction in voice between those involved, then everything changes. I think the driver should be able to use the car with the same rules he would handle a gun. Car/gun shouldn't be used if the other person complies with demands (but once again we need to settle down what we understand for that). And if the situation is reversed, gun pulled on the car, then I don't see why the driver wouldn't be allowed to defend himself the same way he could do if they had a gun. Once again, the use of the car as a weapon, should only be allowed if there is a scene going on, that means the car is there. It can be moving slow or fully stop. Any high speed driving to run over someone falls under VDM in my opinion.


-- Remember the last part of each is just an example of many that could happen, don't focus too much into it, but more on rule itself to highlight the positives, negatives and how to improve it. --

Done with my personal analysis on the rule RDM/VDM but I need to talk about Quick drawing, since I think it belongs to the rule but not mention on it at the moment.

For those that do not know quick drawing is to pull out a gun fast and start shooting. The issue it has is the game limits. If you google about quick drawing in RL you might find out how most of the gun ranges has it forbidden since it's risky and many folks would hurt themselves or someone else. But focusing on the game, Quick drawing is OP (over powered). In GTA you can be looking at someone and if you know where the center of the screen is, place it over the guys head. It doesn't matter if you have your hands up or not, simply press tab and then spam click. I did the time to record a couple examples with streets lights as example for the head of the one gunning at me. I didn't aim at them before hand, all the aiming was done in the video while keeping my hands up.

As you can see the times were 1 second for the first try, and less than one for the second one. In the second one I had my arm in the way that's why I had to correct a bit the bullets as I was shooting, but I could have just keep talking to the one aiming to me and move a bit so the arm would be away and I could aim a perfect head shot. Also most of the people at gun point will be closer so the heads are a bigger target than the lamp posts I used. Some might say that they are trained for it, saying they are cops, hitman, or simply addicts to the gun range. I think none of those are valid reasons, since in my opinion is powergaming. Roleplay is not about been superman, it's ok to 'loose' at times, if we all quickdraw this is the wild west. It's way more healthy to Roleplay things out in my opinion. It's like courtesy between players to do not go to open fire without a small window for the other to react. That's why so many of you are mention the 'no value life' that some other servers have. And in a way, even if it's not enforced in this server, it would be handy to keep it as a guideline since that sure would improve most of the RP scenes.



Remember that even I use examples to give a better understanding about what we are talking about, don't focus too much into them, but more on rule itself to highlight the positives, negatives and how to improve it.

[Amos]

Please note that an admin has already said nothing will happen to anyone that participated as we didn't create a good RP scenario. Disregard that.

Focus on the girl in the black coat on what she does, in my opinion, this should NOT happen/be allowed, it's just blatantly FailRP "doing the impossible". (A gun just appearing in your hands and your accurately aiming whilst you have your hands up)

One of my friends goes "Oh, he's shootin' ya", after he died, that's how unnoticeable it is...

 

Edited September 18, 2017 by Amos
Added

[Gambino]

I have dealt with the players from scenario 2 a few times, their behaviour is not surprising. You were trying to tell them to chill and they just used it as an excuse to kill.

[XZiggsX]

I don't wanna get too into this (A. I am new / B. I don't like shooting people) but on a semi-related note. Maybe remove the targeting circle, makes it harder to line people up from a hidden place and one-shotting someone.

[Tomas García]

@Tony Genevese (Gambino) and @XZiggsXThanks for joining the conversation. And, new or not, everyone is welcome to give their opinion in the topic

I think that with the video of scenario two and the one that @Amos did both show the Quick drawing in the way I showed it on my example video. For me that's what's not tolerable. Again this is not a post against any on those videos, they are just used as example of real in-game footage of our server.  If you are in any of those videos there is no need to justify your actions, just act like if the ones doing the quick drawing were a 3rd person. Because what we are talking about is if that is healthy for the server or not.

The suggested way of addressing it by @Amos, by blocking guns if hands are up, and adding a small cool down after hands up, could do work. I still think that even if that gets done with scripting, still needs to be reflected on the rules somehow, so it doesn't happen by any chance. This is a personal opinion, feel free to give your own point of view.

@XZiggsX Targeting point has nothing to do with this. What I did to do my test was mark the middle of the screen with a post it/sticker in RL, that way I could aim without having the gun out much less the target point.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Tomas García
Fixing spelling

[Anton]

It's just sad how people try to avoid RP and losing a few hundred bucks on an RP server, because they don't want to be bothered at that moment or by a specific person. You can specify rules, but if someone just doesn't care, that person won't care more even if the rules are more strict.

[Flori]

40 minutes ago, Tomas García said:

The suggested way of addressing it by @Amos, by blocking guns if hands are up, and adding a small cool down after hands up, could do work. I still think that even if that gets done with scripting, still needs to be reflected on the rules somehow, so it doesn't happen by any chance. This is a personal opinion, feel free to give your own point of view.

Im sorry but i dont agree with this at all because again, it limits the chances of the victim to act fast if they wouldn't want to comply with the perp's demands. I wouldnt even fix the "glitch" of shooting a gun with your hands up. Like you proved on the quick draw video, it is possible to reenact sorta what would happen in RL when putting your hands down, reaching for a gun and shoot, if the perp is fast enough to react to that and shoot you down, they are in their right to do it. 

I think we need to realize this is a game with its limitations, and its up to us to learn to use the mechanics to RP within this frame.

[Flori]

3 minutes ago, Muroko said:

It's just sad how people try to avoid RP and losing a few hundred bucks on an RP server, because they don't want to be bothered at that moment or by a specific person. You can specify rules, but if someone just doesn't care, that person won't care more even if the rules are more strict.

Im actually about to open a new thread about this

[Anton]

7 minutes ago, Flori said:

Im sorry but i dont agree with this at all because again, it limits the chances of the victim to act fast if they wouldn't want to comply with the perp's demands. I wouldnt even fix the "glitch" of shooting a gun with your hands up. Like you proved on the quick draw video, it is possible to reenact sorta what would happen in RL when putting your hands down, reaching for a gun and shoot, if the perp is fast enough to react to that and shoot you down, they are in their right to do it. 

I think we need to realize this is a game with its limitations, and its up to us to learn to use the mechanics to RP within this frame.

the point would be to RP here and not to avoid RP by shooting someone with a magically appearing gun in your hand in the air

EDIT: you can just literally end every scenario ever by claiming that you are a magician and a quickdraw

EDIT2: also you are supposed to be afraid to die and not act like you know that a medic can get you up even if someone shot you dead

Edited September 18, 2017 by Muroko
reason

[Alex White/Grandma Elsie]

You guys gotta know, I never knew you can shoot "magically" when I have my hands up.

I know its partially my fault. You can tell that I stopped shooting after killing one of them when they were 2-3 people because I was shocked it was possible.

Either way I am just move on from the action I did, and will never do it again. 

Edited September 18, 2017 by Fox White

[Alex White/Grandma Elsie]

13 minutes ago, Muroko said:

the point would be to RP here and not to avoid RP by shooting someone with a magically appearing gun in your hand in the air

EDIT: you can just literally end every scenario ever by claiming that you are a magician and a quickdraw

EDIT2: also you are supposed to be afraid to die and not act like you know that a medic can get you up even if someone shot you dead

For EDIT2: But Anton, do you think Miss White would be afraid to die? I know she might be sorta, but if you compare hers to Lili character's for example shes more let's say courage's and wild. The rule to be afraid to die is flexible and will be different from one character to another, just my opinion really. 

Another example I can think of is Krusty the clown, that guy is more wild than Miss White you telling me he will be scared from death? 

Edited September 18, 2017 by Fox White

[Flori]

25 minutes ago, Muroko said:

the point would be to RP here and not to avoid RP by shooting someone with a magically appearing gun in your hand in the air

EDIT: you can just literally end every scenario ever by claiming that you are a magician and a quickdraw

EDIT2: also you are supposed to be afraid to die and not act like you know that a medic can get you up even if someone shot you dead

sigh.... you have to leave room to other reactions, not just "please dont shoot me - take my money - here, rape my wife..." according to their characters personalities.
the "you are supposed to...." is what Im struggling with this whole thing the most.

I get what you say, and how many maaaany people do this just to avoid the RP scenario someone else is forcing on them (as it would happen in RL), but i guess these are the players that if reported for fail-rping would be easy to punish.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Flori
grammar

[Anton]

all i'm saying is : if it would be simple to disable guns while your hands are in the air, it would probably be like that already, because guns are not supposed to appear in your hands.

EDIT: the problem is not that a character is afraid to die or not. the problem is that the player behind every character knows that nothing will happen if they are shot, because either a medic will pick the character up or they just walk into the light and lose their guns, cash and inventory (which is quite different from actual death i think). maybe a more severe punishment for dying would stop players to be reckless and shoot someone just because they scratched their car

Edited September 18, 2017 by Muroko