Putting your hands up and down in critical RP situations(and more faults)

[Majekman]

Earlier today, I got into a life-critical RP situation. I was trying to break out one of my friends from the Police HQ with another friend and we managed to hold 3 officers as hostages. We held them at gunpoint and made them all put their hands up. This was going well until one of the officers decided to put his hands down and attack me and my friend. Now in writing, this sounds like a brave thing to do. But when this is applied in-game then it changes the whole meta of the RP situation. It doesn't turn from being a lowly hostage to being a brave man and freeing your captive officers. It breaks the entire immersion since the delay from putting your hands down to attacking with fists(which is broken in this GTA) is virtually nothing. This doesn't even include the amazing speed at which a character can travel when attacking a locked on enemy. Now the officer who decided to do this not only turns from a compliant hostage into changing the whole situation around, but it can also be seen as not valuing his life as it takes no skill and no roleplay to do these actions. If this server had the putting hands down animation much slower or at least give a few seconds delay between the end of the animation and the start of a melee attack then it would make many RP situations more immersive and much riskier to initiate as a hostage. Now as another fix that could be implemented would be zipties(or someway to "detain"others as civilians). Currently in this servers meta, roleplaying an initiation or any type of act against the officer is unbalanced towards the civilian EVEN with illegal weapons. Officers in this server hold too much power that it forces all players INCLUDING OTHER OFFICERS to interact only with civilians and not other people in positions of any sort of power. The police force has so many resources available to them that can be used against anyone. Want to cuff a player? Only officers can do that. Want to stun an escaping enemy on foot or EVEN IN CARS? Only officers can do that. Want to basically have the fastest and cheapest cars on the server? Only officers can do that. Even the abuse of power is only reserved for officers. Now, there are many faults in the citizen system such as no usable items(illegal or not) that can be used against other players and very importantly a lack of weapons that, if were available, could change how you would initiate and/or even keep your distance from. In my opinion, adding many more illegal items can be used to balance the fighting force of civilians if needed. From experiences gathered by the community, the police force definitely is overpowered. Not in a way you would expect either. In real life, of course the police will have many resources at their disposal. In Badlands RP, they can combine their resources with the ability to abuse power and jail time. One example of this is(actually taken from a member of the community) one man got his drivers license taken away and got more jail time simply because he wanted to connect with one officer and cracked a drug joke with he/she. The officer must have been surging with power going through their mind as he/she punished the poor man for simply engaging in conversation. Now sorry if this has gone from a small issue in the meta of the game to me ranting about the direct overpowerness that the police force holds. I hope each and every reader takes this information into consideration and can see it in practice in the server of Badlands RP and city of Los Santos.

See you all out there!

[PuLsE]

I plus 1+

[monk]

1 hour ago, Majekman said:

Now as another fix that could be implemented would be zipties(or someway to "detain"others as civilians).

This would get abused so much. Did you /me ties hands? because in that case he can't use his hands. There are various ways to RP someone not being able to do something within RP. But also someone who decides to defend them self doesn't mean they're not valuing there life in some cases it could be the exact opposite. 3 guys with guns pointed at you and you decide to punch one of them sure you're not valuing your life. But if there's one guy and he's got more than just me to focus on I'll wait for my time to strike back. And yes LSPD has a lot of tools at their disposal but when you think that there's people out there who kidnap cops every 30 minutes, run from a traffic stop because they ran a red light, got 100+ "because they can", take their cars and jump them off 20ft buildings to get away, etc. the tools are necessary. I get what your saying for the people who aren't disruptive zipties could be  a cool idea, but... As I said with the amount of people who run around and kidnap people and cops "because they can" it would end up getting abused. It's all based off RP had you /me tied hands or something along those lines it probably would've ended differently. There's so many people that think us members of LSPD "have to win" or have the tools to "always win" but if I counted the amount of times I've lost a fleeing suspect, had to let a suspect out of custody because someone pointed a gun at me, gotten kidnapped, gotten shot, or just in general "lost" a situation we would be here for probably about 9 hours. But it's RP I have never "lost" it's fun (until we get to the above mentioned "because I can people."). This isn't meant to bash your ideas nor start any sort of drama but just my take on this. Also if you suspect anyone on LSPD of exploiting like the punching nonstop exploit then file a report, our great administrative team DOES not pick favorites and will take care of anyone who needs to be taken care of.

Edited June 24, 2018 by monk

[Serena]

1 hour ago, Majekman said:

One example of this is(actually taken from a member of the community) one man got his drivers license taken away and got more jail time simply because he wanted to connect with one officer and cracked a drug joke with he/she. The officer must have been surging with power going through their mind as he/she punished the poor man for simply engaging in conversation. Now sorry if this has gone from a small issue in the meta of the game to me ranting about the direct overpowerness that the police force holds. I hope each and every reader takes this information into consideration and can see it in practice in the server of Badlands RP and city of Los Santos.

See you all out there!

I just want to say I appreciate your post and way of approaching this subject. You didn't do it with hostility but you do bring things to the table we can discuss.

I am newer to the police force so if a higher rank wants to correct me, they can, but my knowledge is that the only way we can get someone for DUI is by the person actually self-incriminating or we witness them ourselves drinking then trying to drive afterwards. Some people even RP after receiving morphine from EMS that they can't drive, since that is more realistic.

So when your friend came up and flat-out told me he had been on drugs as an excuse for his actions, I informed him of what a DUI charge is, and also tried to guide the conversation into a different route of... I am not going to stand here and listen to obviously silly answers, having everyone's time wasted, when the bottom line is I wanted to talk about the evasion/reckless driving/felony speeding he committed. 

This has nothing to do with power, and your friend in question who had his license taken was not a "poor man" either. He committed 2 felonies, evaded cops when they just wanted to question him about a report we received, and he fled on multiple occasions. Cops are VERY tired of having to chase motorcyclists. There's still ongoing debates on how to even handle this.

From someone who plays civ more often than cop, I do understand that it feels like cops are "OP", but I can definitely tell you that after now seeing the other side... There is genuinely so much you don't know, and so many protocols that cops must follow to keep us in check. 

Thanks for your feedback though, I am always looking to improve myself, my RP, and my knowledge of how to handle situations as PD.

Edited June 24, 2018 by Serena

[Merr Khan]

I'll start with saying this I understand were your coming from,

Any tool in the hands of a true RP'r and a player who values other people's immersions over their own, would never be abuses, But those players are 1/10,000......... So items like these will never be aloud on a good functioning public server. 

Think about it, If I can just shoot you, cuff you, rob you, drag you to a mountain top, take your phone (so you can't call for a medic), and then leave you to die so you remember nothing. 

How much fun would that be for you? (Cough, Cough, Nopixel).....

Main thing to understand is that on server's were such Illegal items are available, that can be used to force other player's to bend to your will, most often IMO, causes there to be less valuable RP. 

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On this server, to "make" any player submit to your will requires Imagination, Patience, and RP skill. 

Instead of simple "cuffing" or "zip-tying" a player, you must preform a level of RP that satisfies the player's you are engaging with. This is not very hard. 

However simple sticking a gun in someones face, for no other reason then to get what you want, or to "win", is not a very creative, or enjoyable way to do it.  

And a handcuff option in this situation would most certainly by abused. 

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Police Recruits go through many Hrs of training to become Patrol Officer's, and learn when to and when not to use these tools they have. 

LEO's are subject to re-view. If you feel you have been wronged, (Not that you just lost, and went to jail), but truly wronged by an officer, file an IA report, these are meant to help correct any problems within the PD.

But remember threatening an IA report (which is an ooc thing) on an Officer while in game can result in a Ban. 

Be respectful, take your licks, and file an IA report on the forums while in prison.

Remember you must supply video evidence, so make sure you record anytime you play on an RP server!!   

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Now lets talk about breaking into a police station. 

This is an RP server, right? Why would 2 men try to break into a highly secured fortress with multiple trained officers, armed to the teeth?

You saw 3 officers, but lets be honest a HQ would have 4-8 other officers, and dispatch, doing all that paper work.

Not a smart choice if you value your life.

IMO when you or your friends are in the Police Station, in cuffs, and in a cell..... Face it, you lost, do your time and try again later. 

Remember, the server has 31 other people who want to RP with or as cops. We can't spend all our time on 1 person or group, when you go to prison it is a well earned time out, so that officers can address other citizens in need of RP. 

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The LEO vehicle's while affordable, and quick, are certainly not the fastest, or cheapest, on the server.

It's not your fault that so much misinformation gets spread by the illuminate. 

I still remember all the things I thought were OP or un-fair when I was a civilian. 

I wish i could just tell you everything, but i simply can't. 

Trust me, so much has changed on this server since then, that has re-balanced in the favor toward the criminal, and it is a never ending cycle of balance.

Please feel free to submit an application on the forums to become an LEO, and see if you can handle the responsibility of the Role.

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In closing - Remember to record - be respectful and considerate to other RP'rs - and HAVE FUN!!!

Hopefully this info helps you on your journey through the Badlands. 

       

Edited June 24, 2018 by Merr Khan

[Matttheman]

If you feel something was done wrong or anything please file a IA. Thank you.

[TiLLeR]

Quote

A reasonable attempt should be made to preserve your life in any situation. This includes following reasonable demands from a hostile player when there is an indefensible threat to your life. However, if the opportunity presents itself, all players are allowed to defend themselves from hostiles. Ultimately, the aggressor is responsible for their own safety should a target choose to defend themselves.

AKA you cannot dictate how I value my life.  You hold a gun to my head the first chance I get I'm turning the tables.  We are not going to allow an environment where the first person to pull a gun controls the entire outcome.

[Yedrimos]

7 hours ago, Merr Khan said:

Now lets talk about breaking into a police station. 

This is an RP server, right? Why would 2 men try to break into a highly secured fortress with multiple trained officers, armed to the teeth?

You saw 3 officers, but lets be honest a HQ would have 4-8 other officers, and dispatch, doing all that paper work.

Not a smart choice if you value your life.

IMO when you or your friends are in the Police Station, in cuffs, and in a cell..... Face it, you lost, do your time and try again later. 

Remember, the server has 31 other people who want to RP with or as cops. We can't spend all our time on 1 person or group, when you go to prison it is a well earned time out, so that officers can address other citizens in need of RP. 

^^^This

[George Cahill]

/me ties hands

/me takes guns and radio
 

Short and Sweet.

[ValkyrieBlu]

On 6/24/2018 at 8:54 PM, TiLLeR said:

AKA you cannot dictate how I value my life.  You hold a gun to my head the first chance I get I'm turning the tables.  We are not going to allow an environment where the first person to pull a gun controls the entire outcome.

There have been situations where Person A pulls a gun, points it at Person B, gives reasonable demands ''put your hands up or I'll shoot you''. Person B then pulls their gun, and shoots Person A and doesnt really give Person A any warning. This then places the outcome in Person B's hands, which is frustrating. Should Person A have thought better about his actions? Yeah, if he didnt wanna get shot he should've gone home and rethought his life. But it then becomes an environment where the second person controls the entire outcome as opposed to two roleplayers working together to create an interesting scenario, but its even easier for Person B because the initiation has already been done for them. They don't have to role play at all at that point, whereas Person A might have been trying for it. I know when I tried playing as a criminal, I lost every initiation because the other person drew their gun immediately and shot. When I am Person A, I am looking for RP. I'm not looking to win necessarily. I will take my hits as they come and allow that to change my character. But 99 times out of 100, Person B shoots immediately and gives me no RP, and this is one of the many reasons I choose to play as non-criminal as I can. I understand why the rule adds that Person A is responsible for their own safety should Person B choose to defend themselves, but at the same time, giving the option to Person B to retaliate sometimes results in power/win gaming. Not many people want to lose and they will use the knowledge of the game's mechanics and server rules to their advantage. From lack of crossheirs (first person to shoot usually has a better chance at the kill since they have that extra time to readjust their aim), to knowing the timing of certain animations, to knowing too that Person A literally cannot shoot until Person B has shown weather or not they are going to comply, and sadly many a time it is found out they wont comply only after Person A is already on the ground calling for EMS. 

[Bob Johnson]

Drawing your weapon takes so long that I don't know how person B could ever shoot person A if person A is paying any attention.

Edited June 27, 2018 by Bob Johnson

[Anton]

18 minutes ago, ValkyrieBlu said:

There have been situations where Person A pulls a gun, points it at Person B, gives reasonable demands ''put your hands up or I'll shoot you''. Person B then pulls their gun, and shoots Person A and doesnt really give Person A any warning. This then places the outcome in Person B's hands, which is frustrating. Should Person A have thought better about his actions? Yeah, if he didnt wanna get shot he should've gone home and rethought his life. But it then becomes an environment where the second person controls the entire outcome as opposed to two roleplayers working together to create an interesting scenario, but its even easier for Person B because the initiation has already been done for them. They don't have to role play at all at that point, whereas Person A might have been trying for it. I know when I tried playing as a criminal, I lost every initiation because the other person drew their gun immediately and shot. When I am Person A, I am looking for RP. I'm not looking to win necessarily. I will take my hits as they come and allow that to change my character. But 99 times out of 100, Person B shoots immediately and gives me no RP, and this is one of the many reasons I choose to play as non-criminal as I can. I understand why the rule adds that Person A is responsible for their own safety should Person B choose to defend themselves, but at the same time, giving the option to Person B to retaliate sometimes results in power/win gaming. Not many people want to lose and they will use the knowledge of the game's mechanics and server rules to their advantage. From lack of crossheirs (first person to shoot usually has a better chance at the kill since they have that extra time to readjust their aim), to knowing the timing of certain animations, to knowing too that Person A literally cannot shoot until Person B has shown weather or not they are going to comply, and sadly many a time it is found out they wont comply only after Person A is already on the ground calling for EMS. 

Have to agree with you, because it happened to me too. I was Person A, i tried to role-play a situation and was shot down. Did not care about punishments (jail, loss of money, gun), it was more sad that the RP was stopped with a gunshot. Have to mention that mostly it happened when Person B was an officer, who would have time and opportunity for the whole session to chase me, capture me and punish me for my actions, instead they chose to finish it right there risking lives. This is probably why i hear from many players about the "police always has to win" term. 

[TiLLeR]

Quote

This is probably why i hear from many players about the "police always has to win" term. 

I was unaware that defending yourself and your fellow officers was 'have to win'... I thought it was preservation... or as Darwin once said "Fight or Flight".  (was it darwin? *Shurgs*)

 

[Anton]

10 minutes ago, TiLLeR said:

I was unaware that defending yourself and your fellow officers was 'have to win'... I thought it was preservation... or as Darwin once said "Fight or Flight".  (was it darwin? *Shurgs*)

 

What you don't get is that very few of these RP scenarios are actually aimed to hurt an officer. If the officers would comply, probably no one would get hurt and they would only lose time or some things. But that would mean that they "lost" so they just pretend their life is in danger and shoot. 

[Storrent]

8 minutes ago, Anton said:

What you don't get is that very few of these RP scenarios are actually aimed to hurt an officer. If the officers would comply, probably no one would get hurt and they would only lose time or some things. But that would mean that they "lost" so they just pretend their life is in danger and shoot. 

If you've got a gun to your head, you cannot even pretend your life is not in danger. An officer is expected to make quick judgement in these scenarios, and that, more often than not, involves subduing the aggressor by any means possible.

[Gambino]

6 minutes ago, Storrent said:

If you've got a gun to your head, you cannot even pretend your life is not in danger. An officer is expected to make quick judgement in these scenarios, and that, more often than not, involves subduing the aggressor by any means possible. 

In my experience there is an eagerness to just shut down situations with violence or "quick judgement" as you say, rather than let them play out. The issue of roleplay over gunplay applies to PD as well.

[Anton]

1 minute ago, Storrent said:

If you've got a gun to your head, you cannot even pretend your life is not in danger. An officer is expected to make quick judgement in these scenarios, and that, more often than not, involves subduing the aggressor by any means possible.

Or ... hear me out .... they could wait and find out what the hell the aggressor actually wants and decide if the aggressor has to be stopped right now or not. And that goes for civ vs. civ too. Didn't want to derail this topic into a police vs. criminal discussion. People in general are quick to shut down these kind of RP scenarios, because they are simply not in the mood to go with it.

[Kota]

You know what I am sick of... and "hear me out" The same few people from EMS consistently going post to post having negative things to say about PD calling them must win all the time. 

[TiLLeR]

People are quick to shut down kidnapping scenarios b/c they do not find them enjoyable.  I personally hate them.  In my 5 years RP experience I've rarely found an encounter enjoyable.  I can tell you half of the kidnappings I've witnessed here on Badlands have been uncoordinated and often results on the aggressor not even talking to the hostage (ie there is no RP at all).  I know people who IRL have been attacked in a similar manner and RP'ing it out simply is a trigger to them so they do their best to avoid it as well.  Everything is a choice in RP.  You choose to put the gun to my head, I get to choose if I play it out or not.  It's really that simple.  We've had this same debate since August and the server rules have not changed. 

I know that there are mechanics in the works to help with these scenarios.  I'm not sure when they'll be released but the staff/dev team here are always trying to strike a balance.  Just understand that balance will never tip so that one person can completely dictate another persons actions. 

[Gambino]

Being a part of EMS hasn nothing to do with my opinion. This is just my observations from my experiences playing on the server.

 

[TiLLeR]

It's true that this should not turn into an EMS vs PD thing... the point about the same few people constantly saying "PD has to win" is really the point IMO.  

[Gambino]

16 minutes ago, TiLLeR said:

It's true that this should not turn into an EMS vs PD thing... the point about the same few people constantly saying "PD has to win" is really the point IMO.   

Well... I have said quite a lot more than that. Its not like I'm defending my point of view for no reason. With what I have seen and the way it affects the gameplay, I feel like its nessecery. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Anton]

OP actually said it pretty well i just wanted to add my experience to it. No idea what all this has to do with EMS either.

LSPD needs to realize that a gun to their head doesn't necessary mean that the aggressor is interested in harming them, but to keep them in check so they can achieve their original goal (which again is not to harm or kidnap officers) , aka. in the original post to free their buddy from PD jail. All i'm trying to propose is to maybe let them free their buddy (or whatever else) and gain an opportunity to further RP with them later, rather than just shooting and imprisoning them. Gives opportunities for manhunts, police cooperation with civilians to catch a fugitive, rather than just shutting down the RP. I cant emphasize more, i'm talking about aggressive scenarios where the goal is something else than harming, kidnapping officers.

[TiLLeR]

Quote

LSPD needs to realize that a gun to their head doesn't necessary mean that the aggressor is interested in harming them

A gun to my head 100% means my life is in danger.

[vDrop]

I was trying not to chime into this, but if no one minds my opinion. I'll agree, this is mainly a discussion of "PD has to win", (Which is arguable not true). My only observation that I'm seeing, and I apologize if I'm wrong and this is for argument purposes only, but the main source of the complaints are from active criminals, citizens & essentially non LSPD staff. If your getting caught every single time, maybe your doing something wrong? I can't tell you how frustrating a shift goes when calls escape us and a criminal / or potential suspect gets away. The officers your up against are coordinated and conducting legit investigations (another story), but these are trained police officers whom are armed and taught on how to protect themselves. The argument is no RP Value, No value of life, and I don't think that's a fair judgement without being on the other side. Each officer has been in plenty of situations were force wasn't used in return. Only the bad is being presented, not the good, and there's plenty of good that can be talked about.