[Suggestion] - Value of Life Amendment

[Saja Kain]

The suggestion is to add an amendment to our current Value of Life rule that strictly prohibits any RP scenario involving any form of suicide. This is a pretty deep issue for some for any and all reasons one can imagine. I won't go into all the possibilities; most of us are adults and understand.

The issue that brings this suggestion up, however, is the individuals we see in the city (primarily as EMS) that abuse this RP scenario to gain an advantage, cause a nuisance to the city, or uses it as a last resort for RP because they can't / won't think of anything else. Case in point is an example of someone "choosing to end their life" simply because they're out in BFE and feel it's too much effort to get to a hospital / garage. Another reason could be the storm is approaching and they want to get somewhere efficient for the reset. In another situation, they're messing around on a building and have an accident. They don't care to come up with a reason or viable RP and they just say "well I just chose to end my life".

I can go on and on with other situations and examples. The core to this is it can potentially pull EMS away from others who actually need them as a result of one scenario or another. I understand that there will be those one or two people who wish to have a genuine and quality RP scenario evolving around suicide. If the EMT can handle the weight that comes with it, it can be a good thing for all parties involved. However the majority of these circumstances are because it's a last resort, I-have-no-other-reason, scenario and it can kill the experience / make someone extremely uncomfortable / prevent EMS from handling other, legitimate, scenarios in the city.

This is not something I suggest lightly. I feel it would be something that benefits the entire community. While it will remove the very small chance of a good RP scenario for a few, the bigger picture is the goal here. If this were to be implemented, we could then effectively treat it as RDM / VDM and report it, EMS wouldn't be under scrutiny for avoiding RP, nobody would be put in an uncomfortable situation, and EMS wouldn't have their time wasted from people who have "nothing else better to do".

[Mr. Green]

I completely agree with this

 

[vDrop]

I think "suicide RP" needs to be against the rules. I'm here to RP and have fun. That's too much. 

[Dorian_Fendrel]

I understand the realism they are trying to portray, however, as LSPD I have seen several cases of this as well. They use it as a scape-goat, rather than a doorway to better roleplay. I think this is a controversial issue in regards to taking out an element of roleplay for some individuals, however, small the number may be. I am not aware of the EMS SOPs, however, maybe they should not be forced to revive someone who committed suicide. IF the EMS rolls on the scene, they give bad roleplay IE the reasons or similar to what was mentioned, perhaps that allows the EMS to just leave the scene and move on, not wasting any more time. Likewise, could always make it a crime, and people end up being charged for attempted murder, even further tempting people to NOT want to kill themselves. Perhaps we can come up with other more clever and exciting ways to use this to create a more roleplay friendly and engaging situation, instead of just banning that type of roleplay altogether. I do see where it can be personal for some, I myself lost one of my best friends due to severe PTSD. He took his own life.  Perhaps if other ideas cannot be worked with, or implemented, then a full against the rules, would not be such a bad idea.

[Serena]

Maybe I don't understand this fully? You are saying that EMS do not revive those who have their reason being suicide?

I don't see how it would make a difference upon implementation- if it hypothetically were to be- since the EMS would not even know the reason until they arrived on scene. At that point, everything you're saying it would do to benefit EMS/RP QoL has already gone out the window. Only way this could even work is if EMS were made aware of how the patient got injured prior to taking the call, and that is just not likely to happen unless the entire 911 system changed.

[Saja Kain]

7 hours ago, Serena said:

Maybe I don't understand this fully? You are saying that EMS do not revive those who have their reason being suicide?

I don't see how it would make a difference upon implementation- if it hypothetically were to be- since the EMS would not even know the reason until they arrived on scene. At that point, everything you're saying it would do to benefit EMS/RP QoL has already gone out the window. Only way this could even work is if EMS were made aware of how the patient got injured prior to taking the call, and that is just not likely to happen unless the entire 911 system changed.

I'm suggesting that it be a rule, under our current Value of Life, that members are not allowed to use "suicide" as an RP scenario relating to their death. This would be just the same as RDM and VDM are not allowed. If someone chooses to use "suicide" as their means of death EMS would be able to 1) report the player for not adhering to our rules and 2) move on to the next call without concern of being reported for avoiding RP / neglecting to do their job.

There's two primary reasons for this suggestion. First is the obvious: suicide, in and of itself, is a very touchy subject for people. Some people have a more intimate experience with it than others and may not want to go through that experience again, even in RP, in a video game. On the EMS side of things, an EMT may be uncomfortable in handling someone who claims suicide. Adjusting our Value of Life rule would prevent this situation from happening all together. If it did happen, the EMT would be able to leave the scene without fear of disciplinary action against them for avoiding RP / not doing their job. As it sits right now, EMT has two options; try to work out the scenario to the best of their ability or simply cut it short by saying something to the effect of "Well I'm going to take you to the nearest hospital and let you see a therapist." - which almost immediately kills the RP experience that the other player may be looking for. It can be a very awkward and uncomfortable situation for all people involved.

The second reason is that EMT have experienced some players using "suicide" as a means to gain an advantage in the game to one extent or another. In other circumstances they use it as a "I don't have any other idea" scapegoat. People playing in the interstate to intentionally get hit and have an EMS arrive and take them to the hospital / garage. Falling off buildings in hopes to get transportation to a nearby garage before the storm. Fighting each other because they had nothing better to do and it's "Well we wanted to end our lives so we wanted to see who died first." It has also been experienced that while something like this is going on, EMT is receiving other calls. In particular one case of reviving someone in the interstate because they chose to play in it, the player gets denied a ride to the garage. What do they do? They jump in front of the next semi and get knocked out again. "Why did you do this?" - "I couldn't cope with life so I chose to end it right here."

I'm suggesting that it might be the best solution all around to simply have the rule amended: under our Value of Life rule a player is not allowed to, under any circumstance, claim "suicide" (or anything relating to it) for a reason to their situation. If they do, EMT is allowed to immediately leave that scene and leave them there. It avoids putting any player in an uncomfortable position that they may not wish to be in to any regard and it avoids people using it to gain an advantage in the game to any extent.

I do believe that there are people in our city that can adequately handle a "suicide" RP scenario; both the victim and the EMT. However I also believe that this circumstance would be so rare that it would better benefit the entire community to have it where this situation doesn't come up at all in the first place.

[Caralanco]

Agree 100% with Sully, I've had to deal with multiple suicide calls as EMS and it always ends up turning out the same way, a 10 minute back and forth and ends up with them jumping anyway, even after all the effort. 

[Serena]

I think I will let @speed comment on the suicide aspect more if he wants, however, this form of RP is not against our rules and I don't think there will be a change to it. People who are uncomfortable with this form of RP do not need to involve themselves. 

I understand your point on someone who uses this as an excuse and does it repeatedly, but I could have sworn there was a discussion months ago that at that point you don't need to revive the individual(s). Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but someone who is just not valuing their life you can use your discretion on. I think their reasoning should not matter as much unless it becomes abusive, and if it's abusive, then the above statement stands ^ (unless I am incorrect on that). Someone being abusive and not valuing their life doesn't need to say "suicide" in order to be doing it. And both don't give either side much RP.

[Flori]

9 hours ago, Serena said:

 but I could have sworn there was a discussion months ago that at that point you don't need to revive the individual(s). Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but someone who is just not valuing their life you can use your discretion on

Just to clarify, We cant just openly say as a rule: Use your discretion (Unfortunately this judgement call differs from person to person and might be misused). EMS revives always, reports later if necessary.

[vDrop]

Yeah, I’d rather and feel more comfortable with a rule to protect the RP. 

[Porkinator]

Someone who abuses the EMS to get revived, yes can be annoying. Currently it states all calls end in a "revive". I think the issue isn't so much that "suicide" RP needs to be banned, It's a sensitive subject that a lot of people have strong relation to. One of our city rules is that we don't force people into RP, I find that a solution is just for people to be more aware. For example, you may want to RP out a suicide and the responding EMT or civilian in the area doesn't appreciate that form of RP. Just be aware of your surroundings. Feel out the scenario, tension in "suicide RP" is noticeable. If you find someone not reacting in a comfortable manor, I suggest easing off. Save the RP for another time with another person/people that will be comfortable engaging in that RP. Let's be respectful of people's personal opinions and just have awareness and compassion, help the game be enjoyed by all.

 

My personal "2cents" is that suicide RP isn't needed in the city, It seems to cause a lot of debate and tug on people's irl experiences. I also understand that it's just "RP" and if done in a respectful way I don't personally see an issue.

Badlands I value as a big online family, Let's treat each other as we would treat our own families.

Edited December 22, 2018 by Jordan.S

[Merr Khan]

Anyone who "commits suicide" then presses E should be banned IMO...... 

[Serena]

59 minutes ago, Merr Khan said:

Anyone who "commits suicide" then presses E should be banned IMO...... 

Could be muscle memory/habit. Some don't call EMS and a bystander does. 

[Josh Costello]

Doesn't really seem like an aspect of roleplay that would be missed much if ruled out.  At the same time, the more rules, the more "controlling" things tend to get.  I understand why many want this banned and as LSPD I can say that I've had several of these "calls" and I can't recall a single instance personally where the civilian decided to RP it out where everyone got to "win" and the Civ was saved.  

Those of us who've dealt with real world issues similar to this don't enjoy kids making it a joke, especially when it doesn't end in a heroic "save" manner.

[BlackMagic0]

3 hours ago, Josh Costello said:

Those of us who've dealt with real world issues similar to this don't enjoy kids making it a joke, especially when it doesn't end in a heroic "save" manner.

My big thing here.  A lot of people are actually effected by this stuff from RL.  It's just one those things I'd rather not have to play out.

[Merr Khan]

A lot of "suicide RP" players are looking for quick attention. They do the deed (Jump), and call medic so they can do it again. This is not RP and should be dealt with <----- This is the type of action I see most players associate with "suicide RP" and not liking or wanting to be part of. And i'm sorry that most of you have had to deal with these types of players and situations. 

 

On that note, one of my most enjoyable encounters on this server while on duty, was with a jumper that I saved, it was really good RP, I would not want to take that option away from anyone. - 

(video broke) 
 

Suicide is not the only RP that can easily be done in poor taste. It can be IRL triggering for some individuals. But it is your job as a RP'er to interpret the scene, choose a course of action, and continue to RP until you can bow out. There is nothing stopping your character from running away screaming, or having to poop really bad, cause you IRL are not OK with the scene. I have done it plenty of times.  

 

Point is not everyone will agree on the same things. I don't think the issue is suicide per say, but more about bad or poor taste RP. (which is subjective)

And there are rules already in place to deal with players who are being disruptive towards other players RP. 

Edited December 23, 2018 by Merr Khan

[Kota]

Imo sucide RP should be against the rules just like sexual assault RP is. The fact it isn’t yet baffles me.  

Touchy subject for too many people. 

Edited December 23, 2018 by Kota Taylor

[Serena]

I thought long and hard about why sexual assault RP would be not allowed vs suicide RP being allowed: sexual assault RP would be forcing someone regardless of their consent. It requires more than 1 person in this situation to make it work and suicide RP does not. It comes down to one individual's actions by themselves and those that don't want to be involved can walk away. The only people who can't are EMS that are helping a downed person. Instead of trying to change RP and amend a server rule, perhaps SOP's could be discussed instead so EMS don't need to stick around in that uncomfortable situation.

I'm struggling to put this delicately, but we are playing a violent game at the end of the day. Have we become that desensitized to all these other forms of violence that we let all of it slide? When in the real world, someone going through a drug addiction problem and then OD'ing later can be just as sensitive to people that have gone through that kind of loss, as someone committing suicide. 

I write none of this to diminish or undermine people's feelings on the matter, but hopefully change perspective...

My final thoughts are that this is getting a bit too political, I think it needs to be discussed less and perhaps put to a vote.

[Saja Kain]

1 hour ago, Serena said:

I'm struggling to put this delicately, but we are playing a violent game at the end of the day.

We are playing a violent video game but we are also playing it with severely altered rules. GTA, in and of itself, is a violent title. But we have rules, here, to restrict randomly being ran over, shooting people without a clearly stated reason, unable to interact and bait the law enforcement outside of illegal activities, and doing anything (in general) that could be considered disruptive or that negatively impacts the gameplay experience of others. The game is designed around violence yet we have several rules prohibiting us from fully exercising those capabilities.

 

1 hour ago, Serena said:

My final thoughts are that this is getting a bit too political, I think it needs to be discussed less and perhaps put to a vote.

Ultimately, yes, it should come to a vote. Discussion, however, is also necessary so views of those that care can be presented. This way the administration can consider all sides.

[BlackMagic0]

8 hours ago, Kota Taylor said:

Imo sucide RP should be against the rules just like sexual assault RP is. The fact it isn’t yet baffles me.  

Touchy subject for too many people. 

Mhm.

[Serena]

16 minutes ago, Saja Kain said:

We are playing a violent video game but we are also playing it with severely altered rules. GTA, in and of itself, is a violent title. But we have rules, here, to restrict randomly being ran over, shooting people without a clearly stated reason, unable to interact and bait the law enforcement outside of illegal activities, and doing anything (in general) that could be considered disruptive or that negatively impacts the gameplay experience of others. The game is designed around violence yet we have several rules prohibiting us from fully exercising those capabilities.

 

Ultimately, yes, it should come to a vote. Discussion, however, is also necessary so views of those that care can be presented. This way the administration can consider all sides.

At what point is the line drawn? To you, suicide may be a sensitive subject. To me, someone OD'ing on drugs could be my trigger. <- Just examples.

Neither of these offenses requires anyone else's involvement except those who want to participate and EMS who are required to help.

Both are terrible situations in the real world and can affect us on an uncomfortable, emotional level. Especially when someone undermines the seriousness. 

I personally think the line is drawn where one person's actions requires others to be directly involved and can disrupt other people's player experience. Such as... A cop being baited. A person shooting another without initiation.

Suicide RP you have the choice to walk away and not be involved (unless you are EMS), someone putting you into a downed state has forced you into a position you had no control over, no decision or thoughts to act on.

[Kota]

2 hours ago, Serena said:

Instead of trying to change RP and amend a server rule, perhaps SOP's could be discussed instead so EMS don't need to stick around in that uncomfortable situation.

 

 

The problem here is its distasteful roleplay. And I highly disagree with it being a change in SOP's. Fact is Rape/Sexual assault and Suicide are two things that are very commonly banned on various roleplay servers. People use roleplay to escape and have fun and neither of those subjects are fun and can be very traumatic for some that have had to deal with it in their real lives.  especially when we are not a whitelisted server... It makes badlands look bad when we as a community allow that sorta stuff. Thankfully we banned the sexual assault roleplay... I think it's time we look at doing away with the sucide roleplay.  
 

Edited December 24, 2018 by Kota Taylor

[Serena]

2 minutes ago, Kota Taylor said:

The problem here is its distasteful roleplay. And I highly disagree with it being a change in SOP's. Fact is Rape/Sexual assault and Suicide are two things that are very commonly banned on various roleplay servers. People use roleplay to escape and have fun and neither of those subjects are fun and can be very traumatic for some that have had to deal with it in their real lives.  especially when we are not a whitelisted server... It makes badlands look bad when we as a community allow that sorta stuff. Thankfully we banned the sexual assault roleplay... I think it's time we look at doing away with the sucide roleplay.  

Why is suicide RP distasteful but say... kidnapping and murdering isn't? What about RP'ing out the kidnapping of children and using them as leverage? 

If the rule is that we will not allow suicide RP because it is "distasteful", then many other things could fall under this umbrella. 

This is too open-ended and we could talk about this in circles all day. The previous message I wrote references defining the line, and how I interpret where we've drawn it. 

2 hours ago, Serena said:

I thought long and hard about why sexual assault RP would be not allowed vs suicide RP being allowed: sexual assault RP would be forcing someone regardless of their consent. It requires more than 1 person in this situation to make it work and suicide RP does not. It comes down to one individual's actions by themselves and those that don't want to be involved can walk away. The only people who can't are EMS that are helping a downed person. Instead of trying to change RP and amend a server rule, perhaps SOP's could be discussed instead so EMS don't need to stick around in that uncomfortable situation.

^ my response to the difference between rape/sexual assault vs suicide RP.

I'm all for discussion so people can see the views of both sides, but I don't want to have a repetitive conversation. So I think I will leave this post as my last response and say that our best bet is to get an idea of how many people genuinely would like to see suicide RP as an invalid form of RP, and also to hopefully see what speed's thoughts are on this matter.

I'm all for making people's overall experience better and if the consensus is suicide RP is heavily disliked, I'm on board.

[Saja Kain]

16 minutes ago, Serena said:

Why is suicide RP distasteful but say... kidnapping and murdering isn't? What about RP'ing out the kidnapping of children and using them as leverage?

While I don't know everyone who comes to the city, I haven't heard of many people claiming children. The difference here is that, yes, all are distasteful but what's actually playable in the city? I'm not saying it's impossible; I just haven't seen any "children" in the city.

I agree with you, though, ultimately. Each individual is on their own terms as to what they feel is crossing the line or not. It's not up to the devs of the server to consider each and every scenario. But there are some things that are more "distasteful" than others. I also do not wish to have an endless cycle of conversation. A decision will have to be made at some point or another.

I presented this discussion after an EMS Q&A meeting in the past week. It came up for discussion there. I would be interested to see @speed's opinion on the matter as well. I believe you and I, Serena, have an understanding of each other.

[vDrop]

I really don't understand the defense of suicide RP at all and comparing it to Murder & Kidnapping for a GTA RP.