Disappointed, Really. . .

[Saja Kain]

On 1/2/2019 at 4:08 PM, Storrent said:

I left the server for many reasons. Mainly, I was dissatisfied with the level of realism from the server. Seeing the blatant disregard for how someone would act by everybody in the server--civ, PD, and EMS alike--put me off immensely.

I didn't want to post this in Storrent's thread. I respect him enough not to cloud his farewell with this topic of conversation.

------------------

Last night in Server 2 I was being trained in the LSPD. We were on the run the entire night, always a call to take, always something to handle. 80% of it, however, was at Vinewood Bank. If you have any idea of what server 2 is like and the crowd that runs Vinewood Bank you may have a better understanding of the situation than what I do - at least more than what I experienced last night and tonight.

Unfortunately I was not using my GoPro last night (because I was training) nor tonight because of other reasons. Last night was something else. Blatant disrespect for the officer (even after being told he was training; no RP courtesy whatsoever) - ignoring lawful orders, demanding charges that don't even exist in the city (rape), literally surrounding the CPL and myself and outnumbering us 3:1. Overall last night was calm but man was it unrealistic and disrespectful all around. I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

Then we have tonight. As previously mentioned, I didn't have my GoPro running unfortunately. I go to the Vinewood Bank as a civilian to try and conduct some business. (I was going to ask about a loan). When I walk in I stumble upon a hold up in progress. I'm covered behind a wall but - hey - my SS number must be visible because they ran right to me and demanded me to leave or get shot. (I'm glad people can "see through walls"). I went outside, however. I didn't want to get shot, after all. LSPD shows up (the same CPL that trained me ironically) and I warned him about the situation: at least 3 gunmen. He would need backup.

I stand outside, leaning up against a pole, talking with LSFD while they wait for the all clear. Three individuals are properly escorted out of the bank and given a lawful order to stay put while LSPD handles the scene. One lady pulls out a pool cue and directly refuses the lawful order to put it away. At this point, it was obviously LSPD's scene but there was no respect shown for that. LSPD questioned me about them and I identified them (because, hey, I saw it first hand and they directly threatened me). After refusing to put the pool cue away and then grabbing another weapon "by accident", LSPD ordered her to stay still to be restrained. This is still LSPD's scene but do the civs respect the order? No. They try to circle the cop and draw weapons because he's trying to execute a restraint on the female that was disobeying orders to begin with. Now they're all running down the street. I immediately kick into action to help the officer and tell one individual to stop his actions (mind you... his back is turned to me while this is going on as he's walking down the street with his gun aimed) but he ignores me and I get shot. At the end of the day.... all of us get shot. Another LSPD arrives on scene to help as he just clocked in, I get brought up by LSFD, and - as of this point - we all go our separate ways.

I did rant in ooc about it. After what I had just witnessed, my first thought was Storrent's comment on a major reason why he was choosing to leave. The lack of respect and realism was not only surprising but it was disappointing. I couldn't help but think "Oh. This is what he's talking about." It was clearly LSPD's scene and the reasoning I got in ooc was "This is our territory and it was our scene." No sir. It was LSPD's scene the moment you chose to start obeying lawful orders. Under no circumstance are you going to reasonably disobey and threaten an officer with any type of weapon when he has control. And when you have a gun pointed to the back of your head, you're not going to just keep walking and ignore it.

As I titled this thread and stated already. . . disappointed. Perhaps I care too much but it is my sincerest hope that this type of play and RP improves. There needs to be a line drawn between RP and realism. If people are allowed to ignore LSPD so blatantly then why are they in the city to begin with?

I've come to enjoy Badlands quite a bit in my short stint here and I plan to continue getting more involved. I hope, however, for everyone's sake that this behavior cleans itself up. I genuinely felt bad for the CPL tonight, in consideration to what happened last night and piling tonight on top of it, and give him the utmost props for coming back into the city and clocking back on as LSPD. Kudos to you, CPL.

[Storrent]

Thank you for shedding some more insight and providing a detailed example into what I was referencing. I was an officer here for over half a year, and situations like this would happen--at minimum--weekly. Just because this is a video game and the server is touted as a light medium RP server doesn't mean you can act like a jackass. It's 100% okay to have a character that dislikes LEOs, but to show blatant disrespect for basic orders is nothing short of unrealistic and even crosses into failure to value your life. This server doesn't have a rule against unrealistic behavior (or as braindead cocknuggets would call it: "FailRP"), and that serves only to detriment the basic level of immersion expected from a ROLEPLAY server. Every time I brought this up, I was only met with a https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzpndHtdl9A before being brushed aside. Shit like this is why veterans of the server are leaving.

[Serena]

I feel the woes you do, but a lot of this comes down to being a public server. There is no real "review" of playerbase outside of previous VAC bans, so we get all sorts of people coming in. If we were a whitelisted server, or had one, I think this would a whole different story and rules would possibly be more defined and also much more strict. 

[George Cahill]

But. About this "woman" who you are talking about, she didn't do anything wrong in a sense. I understand it is annoying, but you did not have to be there, nor assist. I respect that you feel strong to this and I do to. There is always some sort of RP behind it. But I understand the blatant disregard they had shown.

[Saja Kain]

speed edit - let's not turn this into an argument over a specific scenario.

[George Cahill]

If everybody was "punished" for running from the cops when a taser is pointed, the server's population would not be as big.

speed edit - see above

[Saja Kain]

Just now, George Cahill said:

If everybody was "punished" for running from the cops when a taser is pointed, the server's population would not be as big. Also was she actually tased? From what I get it sounded like she had won the scene, and it went in her favor, so was it police controlled?

Yes it was "controlled". It was in his control the moment all three individuals (including the woman) obeyed the first order to stand to the side. I directly witnessed him direct all three of you to stay put while he came and spoke to me. At that point, it is in his control.

What you're implying is that anyone can just turn over a scene anytime they choose with no actual cause to do so. "Hey. I don't feel like listening so now it's my scene and I can do whatever I want." There's no realism to that. There's no sanity in that. There's no good RP in that.

If the woman and her friends wanted to cause trouble for the LSPD they should've done so from square one. Not follow orders and then change their minds half way through. It ruined the RP with my questioning, it delayed the RP with LSFD, and it caused a whole storm of scrambled eggs afterwards because nobody had control.... everyone was just running and shooting.

[George Cahill]

I just want you to understand that this is how the server will work, with the publicity it has and the players. Let's not argue over this one scene.

Edited January 5, 2019 by George Cahill

[Origiins]

So as someone who was involved in that scene I want to shed some light on what happened. We held up a very controversial group at the Bank in Vinewood. These individuals showed absolute no Value of Life but this isn't the spot for it. My crew and I, after multiple warning, shot the individuals inside the store. We left the bank and got into our vehicle and drove off. We can back within 5 mins to see how the cops were doing. The cops asked us to leave the bank which we did, after being told a couple of times. As we were standing out front of the bank the female in our group pulled out a pool cue but did not threaten anyone in any way. The officer on the scene asked her to put the "weapon" away several times and she was giving him a little hassle. A man in a black tuxedo pulled out a gun to try to help the officers, and to nobody's surprise, the officer asked him to put away the weapon. The officer asked the female to put her hands up and as we just downed 3 players inside the store this was not ideal. So she started to run. The cops chased her. Myself and another member chased the cops with guns. We ordered that cops to stop and they did their job and tried to stop us. They failed and we downed them. In the process of all of this, the man in the black tuxedo stepped in to help the officers in an RP scenario he had no business being in and got shot. All of us were wearing the exact same outfit, with the exact same colors. Nothing we did or anything the officers did was out of the ordinary and did not upset or annoy any of us.

 

I am sorry you feel so negatively about this situation as this was not our intention, but when you initiate on a gang/business, be prepared to get shot.

 

- Tristan

[speed]

I can appreciate your frustration and share your disappointment when an RP situation is interrupted for no real reason. And while we heavily discourage this kind of behavior, it is not against the rules as you mentioned, and that is how some players enjoy playing. Short of players changing their ways on their own, there's two issues that need to be addressed if we want to administratively prevent this kind of behavior, and neither of them are easy.

First we would need to decide if this is something we even want to handle administratively. BLRP has always been a light/medium RP server and a majority of our player-base was attracted for that reason. And while we've shifted towards being more "hardcore" over time, adding a rule preventing "unrealistic" behavior would represent a fairly significant jump towards becoming a hardcore server that the community may not want. We would need to ensure that it's truly in the best interest and desires of the community to add such a rule. Keep in mind that while several of our veteran players consider themselves to be "hardcore" RPers, the majority of the community does not.

Second would be the wording of the rule. How do we define "unrealistic" behavior in a way that prevents this kind of behavior, but doesn't hinder the gameplay experience we've built and our community has come to expect, and can be applied fairly to all situations? It would be very important that this rule is not overbearing so that players don't feel as if they have to second guess every action they take. For example, I have no issues with someone jumping their motorcycle off a mountain to evade police, even if it is "unrealistic."

That said, and this is directed specifically at @Storrent because he keeps bringing this up, you need to keep in mind that every player has different expectations for this server. What you consider a "basic level of immersion" another player might consider in-depth, immersive roleplay. It is not right for you to judge another player's (or the server as a whole) roleplay as "inferior" or "unrealistic" when they are playing the game as they desire and not breaking server rules. And while you're always free to make suggestions about these kinds of changes, you need to keep in mind that we (the staff team) will only make such a large change if we determine that the majority of the community wants it.

Badlands isn't for everyone. We've understood that from day one, and there are hardcore servers out there if Badlands isn't your style, so I fully encourage you to find a server that gives you the experience you want if we're not it. That said, we will always serve the whole of the community, not the individual.

[Saja Kain]

5 minutes ago, Origiins said:

So as someone who was involved in that scene. . .

Thank you for verifying most of the situation. I was the man in the tuxedo.

I see speed editing posts concerning specific events in the whole scene. While I don't personally agree with such actions, I'm going to refrain from commenting further on specifics.

However. Speaking overall, I'm going to have to disagree with the stance of you and your friends. It was an LSPD scene from the moment you respected his initial order when he arrived on scene. To just disregard that without audible RP given (I could've been out of range but I was no more than 20ft from you three), to take off running, to shoot a cop and a civilian after disobeying multiple lawful orders is just asinine. The whole scene was just.... bad. And disappointing.

 

6 minutes ago, speed said:

I can appreciate your frustration and share your disappointment when an RP situation is interrupted for no real reason.

I can see the issue you have from an administrative stand point. You have to consider two things: what direction does the staff want the overall community to go in and how do you make changes to direct it in that path. Do you want a community that is loose and people can get away with doing almost anything they want because it's not "technically" against the rules? Do you want people to be more realistic? It's your responsibility (as the staff) to do all you can to point it in the direction that you want it to go. As it sits right now you (the staff) let the community decide on where things go:

9 minutes ago, speed said:

that we (the staff team) will only make such a large change if we determine that the majority of the community wants it.

I don't know any establishment that lets the "employees" dictate where the establishment goes. "Employees" being a lose reference to the "community" compared to the "staff" here. Every venture I've taken on both personally and professionally, the "staff" not only have control but direct the course of the establishment. (Again, consider broad uses of these terms as it applies to this "community")

Now I'm just a new guy on the block here. It's obviously your community that you have been running for the past 16 months or so. It's my suggestion to take a serious consideration on where you (the staff) want this community to go and start taking responsibility to see it get there. Don't put it on the "community" to decide. You'll have 100 different directions and a really bad game of tug of war.

In your supplied situation... I would handle it administratively, as already stated. Word it in "plain English" and straight forward enough that a teenager cannot misinterpret it. Put measures in place to enforce it. Will it upset the current community as it sits, "overall"? Probably. But it doesn't mean you won't establish a new "community" of players.

[Storrent]

12 minutes ago, speed said:

<snip>

You're spreading yourselves too thin. Pander to the lowest common denominator, and the people keeping this from turning into a freeroam server with economy scripts will bail. Nobody likes getting RDMed/RVDMed, and the main thing preventing that is not the word "Roleplay" in the server title, but those who put effort into realism in order to lead by example, if only by minutiae. You've already got very lower-level-friendly mechanics, such as plainspeech over RTO and a lax set of server guidelines. However, it's a slippery slope, and soon the only thing preventing you from falling into the deep end without a life ring will be a hopefully-active staff team who's up to their waists in player reports by the people just trying to have a good time.

[speed]

4 minutes ago, Saja Kain said:

I don't know any establishment that lets the "employees" dictate where the establishment goes. "Employees" being a lose reference to the "community" compared to the "staff" here. Every venture I've taken on both personally and professionally, the "staff" not only have control but direct the course of the establishment. (Again, consider broad uses of these terms as it applies to this "community")

Now I'm just a new guy on the block here. It's obviously your community that you have been running for the past 16 months or so. It's my suggestion to take a serious consideration on where you (the staff) want this community to go and start taking responsibility to see it get there. Don't put it on the "community" to decide. You'll have 100 different directions and a really bad game of tug of war.

You're viewing this issue from the perspective of a business, not a community. You're also incorrectly viewing our players as "employees" rather than "customers." In a business setting, what you're saying would be true. But this is not a business, this is a community.

Our players ("customers") pay us with their time. And much like money, our players will spend their time elsewhere if they do not receive the experience they expect. That's why listening to the majority is extremely important to us.

Obviously the community does not have direct control over the path of the server. We (the staff) have a vision and values that we hold close, but ultimately it is the community that is responsible for telling us what they want (much like you're doing right now) so we can adapt their feedback into our development and rules, and continue to provide and improve the experience they expect.

This is the methodology that we've been using from day one - and it's the methodology that has allowed us to quickly and consistently become one of the largest and longest surviving RP communities on FiveM.

As I mentioned above, please realize that you are an individual - a valuable piece of the larger community, but an individual none the less. You have a voice, but you do not have the only voice. If the majority of the community agrees with you, we will act accordingly.

25 minutes ago, Storrent said:

You're spreading yourselves too thin. Pander to the lowest common denominator, and the people keeping this from turning into a freeroam server with economy scripts will bail. Nobody likes getting RDMed/RVDMed, and the main thing preventing that is not the word "Roleplay" in the server title, but those who put effort into realism in order to lead by example, if only by minutiae. You've already got very lower-level-friendly mechanics, such as plainspeech over RTO and a lax set of server guidelines. However, it's a slippery slope, and soon the only thing preventing you from falling into the deep end without a life ring will be a hopefully-active staff team who's up to their waists in player reports by the people just trying to have a good time.

With all due respect, you need to understand that your personal expectations do not reflect everyone else's, and failing to meet your expectations does not mean that the server is going to "fall into the deep end without a life ring."

The overwhelming majority of our players do not want to be led into realism (or any other play-style) by other players, they want to play the game the way they enjoy. Lack of realism does not inherently mean a lower quality of gameplay. Use of 10 codes does not inherently make a server superior. It at all comes down to your personal preferences.

And once again, you need to stop viewing the preferences of other players as "lower-level." You are not above other players because you prefer more realistic gameplay. What is fun to you is not guaranteed to be fun for everyone else. Badlands exists solely to provide a fun experience for the community as a whole. And as I said above, you are a single, valuable piece of that community, but your opinion is not worth more than anyone else's.

[Storrent]

7 minutes ago, speed said:

[...]your opinion is not worth more than anyone else's.

I am vocal about my opinions, while others may not be. When I posted "Badlands: A Final Thought," I was approached by several people saying that they agreed with what I had to say and my reasons for departure. I didn't get a single "well, actually." While I may be a vocal minority, I am still going to voice my opinion, regardless of how much it's "worth." I am not going to continue this in Kain's thread, as he respectfully did not choose to pollute mine. Please message me in private if you wish to continue this topic.

Edited January 5, 2019 by Storrent
linguistical accuracy

[speed]

10 minutes ago, Storrent said:

When I posted "Badlands: A Final Thought," I was approached by several people saying that they agreed with what I had to say and my reasons for departure. I didn't get a single "well, actually."

Several people approaching you in private doesn't do much to help us gather feedback, eh? These things should be voiced publicly so we can get an accurate understanding of where the community stands on these issues.

[Saja Kain]

2 minutes ago, speed said:

Several people approaching you in private doesn't do much to help us gather feedback, eh? These things should be voiced publicly so we can get an accurate understanding of where the community stands on these issues.

A slight issue with this is the majority of people, even in an online setting, are not willing to come forward and voice their concerns publicly. They don't want to "rock the boat", as the saying goes. Some individuals feel that the "powers that be" are not open to suggestion or feel their suggestions ignored. I'm not speaking from personal experience in this community; I'm just giving experience overall and what I have been told and seen personally.

When the community feels that they will genuinely be heard and not immediately rejected because of "reasons"; when they openly see others publicly voice their concerns without backlash from ranking members; only then will they consider coming out to say something. Frankly, it's a lot easier to hit a like button.

If they do say anything, as Storrent mentioned, it's most likely in DM. Even then it sometimes comes with a preface "Well I didn't want to say anything but. . . "

[Flori]

When someone publicly voices an opinion, (which is highly appreciated in a community like this) they have to be ready to accept that the suggestion can be either taken into account or denied, all for the better of the majority of the community. So.. getting "shut down" is a possibility and if you trust the vision of the staff, you will accept it having faith it's for the best. Now when you personally still don't agree and feel you always get shut down, then maybe you just belong in a different community with a different vision of how the server should be run, and there is nothing wrong with that.

When voicing your opinion on a public forum, you also need to be ready to start a discussion, having people of the community express their own feelings about the topic and replies to OP, you are exposing yourself and your thoughts, and people will react to that. @Storrent, imo what "pollution" means, is literally toxicity. When you pass judgement from some high pedestal and just state a bunch of negative stuff, it just doesn't help anyone or anything and creates a bad vibe. It's not constructive, it's a final rant at the door "oh btw, this is what i think and why im leaving, bye". Just bitter. If people choose to follow cause they agree with you, everybody is entitled to go wherever they choose.

Now, the people that do stay cause they believe Badlands is for them, should help the same community they choose to be part of, give constructive feedback, voice their opinions with respect and accept that this is a wide ranged public server that serves many different kind of players. 

Regarding realism, it's very subjective as to what kind of RP experience everybody is looking for, hard to put in a box and catalog to set rules about it.

@Saja Kain in my experience in badlands, i ran into all kinds of people, social players, medium/hardcore RPers, trolls, teenyboppers, they all come through the same open door of a public server, and.... I hope this doesn't change! This is just me and why I choose badlands, it keeps it fresh and interesting for me. But I guess everybody has to explore what makes it fun for them, and choose a community according to that.

A final thought: Rock the boat!! speak up and let staff hear you so if you choose to stay, you can be part of the changes that need to be made.

[Saja Kain]

6 hours ago, Flori said:

A final thought: Rock the boat!!

This will probably always be an uphill battle - getting folks to communicate their feelings (be them good or bad). I have always encouraged people to come forward, bring up their concerns, questions, and ideas when it comes to [my] community. That's the only way it'll get better, improve, and expand. I'm thankful that mine has lasted for 10 years now. I hope Badlands lasts just as long. Along the way it'll take people willing to step up and rock the boat, sometimes.

[Flori]

I can't talk on behalf of staff, this is my personal way of dealing with things, when i say rock the boat, i mean dare to voice your opinion even and most importantly negative feedback, stuff that people want to see changed, things that need to be added/removed/improved, expecting a good outcome but being prepared for arguments to "counteract" (can't find the right english word for it) the proposal. For me the best kind of feedback is the one with constructive criticism, based on objective observation, said with respect and founded by personal experience, this shouldn't offend anybody nor the replies to such feedback.

[Benjamin Wells]

I would like to start by saying that I was not involved in the first incident that you mentioned. I do believe that people should be very careful with RP involving sexual assault. The second incident, however, I was a part of. I also believe people did things that were unrealistic. 

For the sake simplicity I will refer to the gang members as individuals 1, 2, 3, & 4. Police officers will be referred as officers 1 & 2.

All 4 gang members arrived at the bank and kidnapped the three people running that bank. After being kidnapped none of the hostages valued their lives, to any extent. When the hostages failed to comply to demands they were shot. At some point during this one of the individual 4 alarmed the others that a someone had entered the bank (he was watching the door in case of police). It is not impossible to know something like through RP in fact, I personally was alarmed when I heard the bank door opening. Mr Kain Who as a civilian had entered a hostile situation involving four armed kidnappers was told to leave. I personally have not been involved in somethings like this in reality, but I would assume anyone is a situation with four people robbing the bank would leave given the first opportunity. In my opinion Mr kain staying at that scene was unrealistic and certainly not value of life. All gang members then left the scene. Not long after we returned and were told to exit the bank. I too believe that people were being unrealistic, only for a different reason. It was due to a clear lack of value for life and safety. The thing is that it is unrealistic for a person who has been threatened to be shot by armed robber to than  stand outside calmly leaning against a light pole.

What happened next is what Mr Kain misunderstands. In real life police officers who are outnumbered by violent individuals who are likely involved in crime, said police officers will exercise extreme caution. Officers IRL all over the world face dangerous situations all of the time. It is not uncommon for officers to be ambushed or attacked by gang members. Officers also deal with disrespectful and non-compliant suspects. The incident that occurred last night was not different than what happens in reality. The police were at a scene in which they were outnumbered 2 to 1 by confident, dangerous, and violent criminals. I said that it was our scene simply because we had the upper hand and we had initiated the conflict to begin with. When individual 1 was told to put away a weapon and refused the officers demanded again until it happened. When individual 1 did it another the time the officers attempted to detain said individual (their first mistake). Both officers were told to stop pursuing individual 1 by individuals 2 & 3 while individual 4 stood across the street. When they failed to comply they were warned with lethal force and then responded with lethal force. As a result of this both officers were quickly downed as well and Mr Kain in the process. The unrealistic thing is that the police attempted to apprehend a gang member while 3 more stood by to assist. I believe that it is very important for police to understand that they WILL sometimes be at a disadvantage, be disrespected, and will lose. This is not unrealistic it is simply what happens with gangs versus the police. One of my first nights in training as a police officer off-duty members of the force created situations in which I dealt with non-compliant suspects. So again the unrealistic part of this what people not understanding how dangerous the situation was. All four gang members than left the scene nearly unharmed due to us having an advantage.

After all of this Mr Kain did say something is OOC about it (not the right place to do this) I then responded (not the right thing to do) and said that yes they came into out territory. The area was our territory because that is where we operate. Members of this gang have been selling drugs countless times in that area. This is not different from the police going to Grove Street or Jamestown. As far as senior members of the server leaving I don't believe Mr Kain has a clue what he is talking about. I have been here for since June 2018 and have enjoyed this kind of RP. Mr kain has been here since November and is currently a recruit in training. I value the opinions of new people as much as anyone else, however, you should be careful when speaking for the more senior members of the server. I also believe that it is very important for new officers to understand that they will often be outnumbered and lose. When this happens you should walk away prepare for the next encounter and figure out how not to lose next time. Do not rant about it in OOC or complain that people were being unrealistic when they behave no differently from gang members in real life.

I do not like to see senior members of the server leaving but anyone who leaves over something as stupid and misunderstood as this is simply being a braindead cocknugget.

[Sheev]

To be honest, this sounds like another case of "The LSPD lost a scenario, the "winners" of the scenario didn't do anything reportable so I'm going to vent about it on the forums"
As someone who spends a lot of time on both cop duty and civ life, you need to understand that a good 95% of people will carry weapons and use them if the scene calls for it. From what I can gather, the cops were outnumbered in a situation they thought they could handle WITH a group known for gang violence. To say it's unrealistic that the same group would do nothing when watching one of their gang member's be put in cuffs right in front of them is simply put: Wrong. 

As for putting yourself in that situation because you felt bad for the cops is un-realistic in itself. In real life if you saw an active scene going on where guns were drawn, would you go ahead and pull a gun and put your own life in danger if you weren't actively involved? Probably not. 

Scenes like these happen all the time, and personally I think if they didn't, cop duty wouldn't be nearly as fun.

[Saja Kain]

1 hour ago, Sheev Thornberry said:

To be honest, this sounds like another case of "The LSPD lost a scenario, the "winners" of the scenario didn't do anything reportable so I'm going to vent about it on the forums"
As someone who spends a lot of time on both cop duty and civ life, you need to understand that a good 95% of people will carry weapons and use them if the scene calls for it. From what I can gather, the cops were outnumbered in a situation they thought they could handle WITH a group known for gang violence. To say it's unrealistic that the same group would do nothing when watching one of their gang member's be put in cuffs right in front of them is simply put: Wrong. 

As for putting yourself in that situation because you felt bad for the cops is un-realistic in itself. In real life if you saw an active scene going on where guns were drawn, would you go ahead and pull a gun and put your own life in danger if you weren't actively involved? Probably not. 

Scenes like these happen all the time, and personally I think if they didn't, cop duty wouldn't be nearly as fun.

With all respect, you're wrong on both fronts.

First off; my wife is a former Deputy Sheriff. In the years she worked for the CO Sheriff's office, in the jail, and on the streets it was more likely that the local gang members would be respectful to the local PD. Yes; some of them were / will be disrespectful. But not most. One case in point, there was a particular incident where my wife was disrespected by another individual while she was working a medical shift. Before that inmate ever made it to the D-board for his actions, the G.D gang got a hold of him. When everything was unfolded, they openly stated that he got what he deserved for disrespecting my wife. There are other, countless, stories from her time where gang members were not only respectful but aided her and the Sheriff's office. Yes, there are other stories where they did not. You're more than welcomed to believe whatever you want; I'm not sure where you get your info from but my experience and reference comes from real life; not back room ego stories or some made up film in Hollywood.

Secondly, I would get myself involved if I saw a police officer outnumbered and in trouble. I won't go into all the details; I'll just say I was in the military. Furthermore - most veterans would, if they were able, jump in and assist a police officer if they needed help. Even citizens have been known to do so. Just Google the subject and spend a few days watching the countless videos and stories of civilians / veterans jumping in to help a police officer in need. Unlike most civilians, I know how to properly use a firearm and wouldn't hesitate to do so even if other weapons were drawn.

It's already been stated that they "technically" didn't break any rules. It doesn't mean the actions were in good taste and it still doesn't mean the RP of others weren't directly affected. The police officers didn't think they could control it; they did control it. The civ decided, for whatever reason, they were no longer going to continue the RP and, instead, chose to do whatever they felt like which lead to a chain reaction of everyone just getting shot.

I'm not going to sit here and recount the entire event. You're more than welcomed to see it however you wish to. I was there and saw it first hand. I've received direct messages, even this morning after I woke up, and had vocal conversations with others who not only share my beliefs on the matter but agree with me on this. I would advise that you do not presume my reasoning on why I chose to bring this topic up for discussion when I clearly stated the reasoning in the OP. It makes you come across as being intentionally antagonistic.

[Benjamin Wells]

Precisely and we are the some and often do help the police when we benefit from it. We however had just robbed a bank which makes a lot of since for us not to be respecting or working with the police. And if in real life you are willing to draw a gun in a situation in which one person a pool cue out then go for it lol. And as far as the RP goes the situation that started there was due to RP that had been going on for a while. I am not trying to be antagonistic just simply trying to show you my side of things. If you want to say our RP is unrealistic and call us out on it saying we are why people are leaving then server then you can expect us to respond. And I'm also sure that in reality you would calmly stand outside a bank being robbed after your life has been threatened.

[Coach]

13 hours ago, Saja Kain said:

I go to the Vinewood Bank as a civilian to try and conduct some business. (I was going to ask about a loan). When I walk in I stumble upon a hold up in progress. I'm covered behind a wall but - hey - my SS number must be visible because they ran right to me and demanded me to leave or get shot. (I'm glad people can "see through walls"). I went outside, however. I didn't want to get shot, after all. LSPD shows up (the same CPL that trained me ironically) and I warned him about the situation: at least 3 gunmen. He would need backup.

I stand outside, leaning up against a pole, talking with LSFD while they wait for the all clear.

Whats more realistic, someone who just robbed a bank shooting a cop or someone calmly standing outside of the bank after they just got told to leave or get shot with a gun to their head  We have been having beef with the Goldsteins for the past few nights after one of my employees was to marry their daughter but she kept talking shit to our CEO. There have been stabbings and shooting on both sides, and it led up to us robbing their bank. This was all RP its not like we just decided hey lets go in this bank and shoot these people. You walked in on our clearly hostile scenario and chose to stay in that scenario. That was your choice. You pulled a gun on people who had just robbed a bank and shot a cop while you were outnumbered. That was your choice. No, i did not see you by your numbers, i saw you because my job was to cover the doors and you were not hidden behind the wall as well as you think you are. There was also another person with you walking out in the open. Not exactly incognito. This was our scenario before you even came around. If you don't want to be a part of this kind of RP you had plenty of time to leave. Theres a whole city to explore and you chose to stay in that one exact spot. Sorry if you feel like it was unfair but that's not the fault of others.

[Sheev]

1 hour ago, Saja Kain said:

Secondly, I would get myself involved if I saw a police officer outnumbered and in trouble. I won't go into all the details; I'll just say I was in the military. Furthermore - most veterans would, if they were able, jump in and assist a police officer if they needed help. Even citizens have been known to do so. Just Google the subject and spend a few days watching the countless videos and stories of civilians / veterans jumping in to help a police officer in need. Unlike most civilians, I know how to properly use a firearm and wouldn't hesitate to do so even if other weapons were drawn.

 

YOU would get yourself involved. VETERANS would get themselves involved. Not every civ that plays within the city holds that same mentality. You cannot use the fact that you were "in the military" as a standpoint for other's roleplay just because it doesn't go the way you want it to go. You can't force a certain situation or roleplay on someone else if they don't want to go along with it. If it was the police's scene as you so stated you shouldn't have gotten involved anyway as it would've changed the whole demographic of the roleplay. 

I've seen clips of how the whole scenario played out and personally found nothing wrong with what happened.

As for seeing your "SS through walls" you were spotted fair and square by the individual who was put in place to guard each entrance. You were told to leave with a gun to your head and instead chose to stick around.