Can we draw a line with RMD?

[Alex White/Grandma Elsie]

6 minutes ago, Muroko said:

all i'm saying is : if it would be simple to disable guns while your hands are in the air, it would probably be like that already, because guns are not supposed to appear in your hands.

EDIT: the problem is not that a character is afraid to die or not. the problem is that the player behind every character knows that nothing will happen if they are shot, because either a medic will pick the character up or they just walk into the light and lose their guns, cash and inventory (which is quite different from actual death i think). maybe a more severe punishment for dying would stop players to be reckless and shoot someone just because they scratched their car

Yeah I understand what you mean now. 

[Thorgs]

Ok I think this has went off topic maybe due to the title of the thread or maybe should have been titled for Rules clarification but most of us see RDM so assumed it was that as i did at first also instead of reading the thread and just looking at the video. The Gun in hands can be started in a different thread and maybe Tomas can edit the title still so people can give there assessment of the rule:   

RDM (Random Death Match) and VDM (Vehicle Death Match)

You must state clear and reasonable demands to an intended target. If a player complies then you must come up with a valid reason within RP to kill them. Do not use your vehicle as a weapon, the only time you may run someone over is if they are in your direct driving path and shooting at you.

In this thread we are discussing Reasonable amount of time to comply  Please post your thoughts so we may improve how the rule reads

Thank you...

[Anton]

20 hours ago, Tomas García said:

I'm starting this post to check what is the general view in the server about what's RMD and what is not.

not to be a dick but ... OP

[Bob Dangle]

5 hours ago, Amos said:

But realistically you can't get your hands from "up", to unbuckling your gun, removing safety, aiming and firing within 1 seconds, it's very unrealistic and doesn't make good RP.

Yes you can get ahold of your weapon, take of the safety and get a good hit in a second. IF you have trained for it. but thats off topic sorry

 

Edited September 18, 2017 by Bob Lee

[speed]

So like @Thorgs said, this has kind of been derailed and it seems like we're now focusing on a couple specific scenarios rather than the rule as a whole, so I'll probably begin to wrap things up in this topic.

The biggest and most complicated thing about RDM is that nothing is ever absolute. You guys need to realize that there are 3 major factors playing into this:

1. GTA 5 is imperfect, and sometimes unpredictable
2. Badlands is imperfect, and sometimes unpredictable
3. Humans are imperfect, and sometimes unpredictable

There seems to be a recurring theme here, right?

We can sit here all day and say "You would/wouldn't do _____ if I did _____", and for every argument you make, I can probably find a video on youtube/liveleak of someone doing exactly that.

The simple fact is that every encounter is unique, and there is literally no way to create a rule that covers every single scenario. In some cases, such as the "invisible firing gun", you are also asking us to modify the mechanics of the game itself with some of your suggestions. This simply is not possible. We will, of course, do our best to fix these issues, and if necessary, punish those abusing them.

Our rules are intentionally vague, for many reasons. As stated above, there are simply too many factors to any scenario. There must be room for interpretation. Second, as much as we don't want people running around gunning each other down out of RP, we also don't want people running around screaming "FAIL RP, FAIL RP, RDM, THE RULES SAY YOU MUST GIVE EXACTLY 300 MILLISECONDS TO RESPOND AND I ONLY COUNTED 280."

In terms of punishment, we will always try to be fair. We would rather sit down and talk about a misunderstanding than ban someone for the server for __ days. We afford this opportunity to all of our players, and a ban is always a last resort. We recognize that there are people in the community that would rather try to get someone banned over sitting down and having a discussion with them. That's not cool either, and we do notice.

In short, recognize that the game, the community, and humans as a whole are not perfect. Mistakes happen, glitches happen. In the end, it's a video game and literally has zero impact on your actual life. Don't be an asshole, and enjoy the community for what it is: a place for people to chill and have fun with each other.

[Tomas García]

4 hours ago, Muroko said:

It's just sad how people try to avoid RP and losing a few hundred bucks on an RP server, because they don't want to be bothered at that moment or by a specific person. You can specify rules, but if someone just doesn't care, that person won't care more even if the rules are more strict.

@Muroko Rules are needed so if someone breaks them they can be reported and the issue addressed by admins. If the rules are not in place or ambiguous then it's hard to enforce them later on.

I agree with @Flori , maybe something about the lines of count to 3 after your lower your hands before pulling out any kind of weapon, could be a decent rule to avoid what in my eyes it's RDM by the one been the victim. Because as it stands without that rule just gives the victims a quick exit which kills RP if they do the quickdraw.

 

Also about what @Muroko and @Fox White said, I'm not about setting limits but I think as an RP server some basic limits should be set for characters. I don't think that creating a character that's a super hero, magician (hey if it's cheap street tricks, go for it. But not the one that does magic guns out of the air), or psychopath would help much the RP. Character should have a minimum of self preservation, not just because EMTs are around they should go all wild. Sure there can be characters that are more reckless, brave, and so on... but still I think each player should know when pushing that too far might degrade the overall quality of a scene.

------------

3 hours ago, Muroko said:

.....the problem is not that a character is afraid to die or not. the problem is that the player behind every character knows that nothing will happen if they are shot, because either a medic will pick the character up or they just walk into the light and lose their guns, cash and inventory (which is quite different from actual death i think). maybe a more severe punishment for dying would stop players to be reckless and shoot someone just because they scratched their car

 I don't think that's the solution for all the cases but yes for many. The cases that wouldn't solve: when someone dies and there is no EMTs around, players say "Why does my character/me have to suffer just because no EMTs are around" which I agree with. But then there are the cases that people don't care about their own lives much less other people lives and shoot for not a real good reason or even they kill themselves. And in those cases it's quite bad RP wise for everyone at the server.  EMTs and PD use way to much of their time in those random cases which takes time from RPlaying with those that go injured or need PD for real. As EMT I have been going back and forth some days and the reason of injuries were been reckless in some of them. I think that the way things are running makes people don't care at all and that leads towards terrible quality RP. I'll do an example of that:
 - Today I was been trained as a cop. And as a player I have to say that the quality of the server was way down compared to other days. Simply if I hadn't been around for a while and this was my first day in, I would have simply left since it was full of random things.  Not only two exaggerated cop baiters but also like 7 people jumping of the roof, including someone dressed as EMT, don't know if he was a real EMT or not. That just shows there is no value of life, which the server as this point doesn't require it at all. But what players can value too is if they loose items or ingame money, but at the moment they know a EMT will get them up and they are just ready to do it again.  I even overhead a player at the square "The cops on this server are crap". And I'm not offended because I was acting as a cop at the moment, it just shows how random the server can get at the moment.

So with that been said. Thank you @Muroko for quoting me but seems it's still not clear. @Thorgs sorry if I wasn't clear. The point of this post is to improve the way the RDM/VDM is set at the moment. Since it seems it's not helping to promote RP and many users still go towards shooting first and asking later. I do understand that at this point the rule addresses some issues but has room to improvement. Since we are in a community there is room use our voice and help the administration, which always will be the ones with the last word, to get things in a better direction. The idea about this post is not to change the server towards a different style of server. The idea is to help the admins change the rules, the RDM/VDM or even others, so the server is more as it was supposed to be.

To end up with a more positive remark compared to the example of my day today, I have to say that I had some good RPlays with different people during the first weeks around, and that's what made me stay around and wanted to get more involved. I also have been in the server at very late times, and sure things get more slack people might get killed at a party by mistake and such, but tends to happen when EMTs are more relaxed. Quite a contrast with the mass suicide that happened today at quite a peak time.

 

@speed I'm confused about the way you stand regarding this topic and the way @SneakyAzShiite did. But I guess if you want to wrap it up and leave it as is, it's your call.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Tomas García
Didn't see @speed 's post as I was writing this one.

[speed]

42 minutes ago, Tomas García said:

 

@speed I'm confused about the way you stand regarding this topic and the way @SneakyAzShiite did. But I guess if you want to wrap it up and leave it as is, it's your call.

I'm open to discussion as long as the discussion is productive.

The previous discussion in this topic (and even your original post) highlights the point that I made in my last post - that each situation is unique, and there needs to be room for interpretation in the rules. The rules regarding RDM are intentionally vague to allow for this. It basically boils down to one concept: don't be an asshole.

VDM is more straightforward. Don't intentionally run someone over unless they're directly in front of you, and hitting them is unavoidable.

[Merr Khan]

On 9/18/2017 at 9:17 AM, Muroko said:

The second scenario is interesting, because a very similar thing happened to me. Was up on the roof, held up several people and just got shot. Don't think it's right, since they never knew if you were alone or you had an accomplice for example on the other side of the road pointing a gun at them too. IMO they simply didn't value their life and was not afraid to die at all. Plus you can see he had his hands up and switched to weapon. In that moment you could have shoot him and he obviously didn't care about it. Don't know if it's RDM but it's definitely wrong in my opinion. He was in clear sight switching to a weapon while at gunpoint and he didn't care if he or his buddy dies.

Well said, little back story. I live in Mass, US. I have a class A licence to carry concealed high capacity, and assault riffles. I carry a Ruger Sr .40c anytime i leave my property. I have been hunting since i was 8, and spent 4 yrs active Army, Expert qualified shooter. I sport/competition shoot regularly and with timers. So with that said i am a proficient shooter, i can draw from concealed and put 2 rounds center mass in 1.37 sec.

Now there is no point ever were i would pull my piece while having a gun pointed at me or near me or someone else in a hold up. It would be a 99.0% death rate. (1.00% chance his gun jams). I don't know anyone who carries a side arm who would. 

Also i should point out in most (if not all) states it is ILLEGAL to shoot a fleeing criminal in the back even if they just robbed you. It is Illegal to shoot anyone unless there is an immediate threat to your or someone else's life. That means if you want to drawn down while they have a gun pointed at your face ok. have fun...... but after they put the gun away you cant haul off and shoot them, unless you want to do 5-10 for manslaughter. 

Now this is a video game, so lets have fun. But when there is no value on life? I have robbed a guy before that said he wasn't giving me money, and i can "shoot him". This being cause he knew the medics will pick him up........ that pissed me off. I wanted to shoot him and make sure he died for good, (ie making medics leave him alone) instead i left him to go find someone else willing to RP.

found the clip. 

Also i like how my other video is being used as example. +++

 

Edited September 19, 2017 by Richard Power