Reanimation

[Dashfere]

Hello people! 
Bit of a thought on the police role when it comes to people in the city we come across or who are down/harmed.
There are a couple of sides to this that I can understand are going to raise some concerns but please come into the discussion open minded and seeing this subject from an RP perspective as much as possible.

Before I get started with this ramble, I just want to make it perfectly clear I do not want the PD to be able to revive people on the spot, all I want is to be able to transport patients to the hospital despite their activities criminal or otherwise, as dictated by RP. 

There are scenes as a cop that have messy endings. whether the hostage is hurt or bystanders are caught in the crossfire between the police and criminals. EMTs are not always available, I can't give you exact numbers to work with to judge this. But that leaves innocent lives at risk. Hostages bleeding out on the floor, injured passersby, as a police officer we can simply give CPR and hope that EMTs clock in.

For myself, personally, having to cart the criminals off to the hospital to render medical aid and leaving the hostage/bystanders injured and on the floor at scenes is a huge immersion breaker for me... 
Sure we get to use the elusive 'Murder' charge for those cases but that to me isn't worth it, as the civ then respawns and is clearly not murdered and goes about their business afterwards. 
So that's one side of the situation.
Next, we have when cops happen upon someone who has been injured or hurt, or had a traffic collision and is just laying waiting for EMT... I find it absolutely RP destroying to just stop talk to them, give them CPR, tell them that the air support will be with them soon (GO TO THE LIGHT KK?!) and then LEAVE... To me that hurts my soul. Dash would never leave someone she comes across at the side of the road.
Going to the light has always been known as you expiring or 'bleeding out' and for a cop to leave someone in that position just doesn't seem right to me at all.

I by no means want people to put 911 calls through to the cops with medical requests or have that be available at all to civs. But as a police officer I would like to have the choice to take someone to the hospital if the story/RP calls for it and not have it dictated by whether or not they have committed a crime that warrants their transport to the hospital.

Please add your thoughts but please try to keep it RP related not about money or taking jobs from EMTs because that is not at all the aim. It's about enriching our roleplay as cops and positively affecting our relations and RP with the civ community.
Thank you
 

[Flori]

Well why would you not be able to do that? it sounds perfectly logical and I thought LEOs would already be doing this when no EMS are available... Not as a replacement of EMS, or as a main responsibility, just normal human behavior.

If there is an SOP against it on PD, I hope it wasn't implemented to somehow not undermine the work of EMS or something like that, it doesn't.

Even though re-spawning is not the end of the world and yes, a lot of people need to get used to the fact that shit happens... from a RP perspective I personally would like to see this happening.

[Coach]

lol yea i got knocked off my bike by a local the other day and was just laying dead on the side of the road. Cop pulls up (i dont remember who) and he was like so what happened? i told him and he was just like ummm okay, sorry to hear that. then he left cause he had to . i understand people need to die and I honestly don't mind going to the light, its part of the game. I just wish there were more things RP wise that police could do in situations like that, even if in the end i have to go to the light. 

[Dashfere]

7 minutes ago, Dino Rigatoni said:

lol yea i got knocked off my bike by a local the other day and was just laying dead on the side of the road. Cop pulls up (i dont remember who) and he was like so what happened? i told him and he was just like ummm okay, sorry to hear that. then he left cause he had to . i understand people need to die and I honestly don't mind going to the light, its part of the game. I just wish there were more things RP wise that police could do in situations like that, even if in the end i have to go to the light. 

Such as?

[Kilo]

i agree , it always seems "weird" to me to just stand there and be like " good luck with that" or even just leave . Everytime i encounter that kind of situation make me uneasy.Im sure we could find a middle ground like Dash has mentioned.

[Coach]

thats the thing, i have no idea lol. I'm not a cop so i don't know what yall would be able to do.

[Dashfere]

1 minute ago, Dino Rigatoni said:

thats the thing, i have no idea lol. I'm not a cop so i don't know what yall would be able to do.

Ok lol! I'm sure we could come up with some things as a force but that would be another whole topic!!

[BlackMagic0]

I agree on hostages and innocents. They are witnesses to the crime and feel they should get the same treatment.  Only thing you can do now as an officer is wait the timer  to go out and if the guy dies charge the criminal with murder..  Though people that do silly things and die of their own choice while no EMS are around. Nope.

[Flori]

this should not be intended as a feature to replace EMS.. PD would not get ems 911 calls, i think this would be something that would allow PD to do something when and IF they run into these kind of scenarios.

[Victor]

2 hours ago, Flori said:

this should not be intended as a feature to replace EMS.. PD would not get ems 911 calls, i think this would be something that would allow PD to do something when and IF they run into these kind of scenarios.

I feel like people start calling PD on phones about downed friends and all that, and when they get used to PD coming to ferry em to hospital, they keep doing that even if EMS is working.

I dunno. I personally think when you go down and no EMS, you are "airlifted" to hospital. It gives sense of danger and loss of your stuff. Yes it makes no sense that PD cant take civs to hospital but nor is instant recovery from massive traumas after 30 sec in hospital. People who bleeding out on scene where cop is, are getting soon airlifted to Central Hospital and they definatelly aint gonna die.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Victor

[Flori]

yes but they are talking about situations for instance when they have to bring the criminal to the hospital to charge them with felony charges, and let the victim of that criminal bleed out.. just makes no sense.
And No, PD should not be taking calls from civs asking for medical assistance, ever, If you think about it, dispatch should screen those calls and refer them to EMS... so the civilians desperate enough to not lose a couple hundred k and having to go to the gym that call PD are just blatantly disregarding basic RP rules, just cause they know PD would be allowed to transport them to the hospital by SOPs.

[Victor]

I agree it makes no sense but just trying to give other thoughts like; Why do PD need to bring criminals to hospital to charge em with felony charges. They die like victims, let em bleed out. Tag em and bag em. Or if criminal is down and no EMS, cops tag downed criminal for prison transport and criminal wakes up in prison with all stuff lost and some jail time.

It makes no sense when I am watching my friend bleed out at hospital stairs when no EMS working but it happens. Even though in all sense and logic I could just drag my friend into hospital.

[ImVexal]

15 minutes ago, Victor said:

I agree it makes no sense but just trying to give other thoughts like; Why do PD need to bring criminals to hospital to charge em with felony charges. They die like victims, let em bleed out. Tag em and bag em. Or if criminal is down and no EMS, cops tag downed criminal for prison transport and criminal wakes up in prison with all stuff lost and some jail time.

It makes no sense when I am watching my friend bleed out at hospital stairs when no EMS working but it happens. Even though in all sense and logic I could just drag my friend into hospital.

Let's be frank we should be inclined to provide help to those who we witness go down due to someone else. 

We could let them go to the light yes, that is an option. Let me clarify what happenes most of the time ; We get into a pursuit, we loose them ,we get into another pursuit, we loose them again, we get into another pursuit. He crashes pulls a gun put and gets dropped and no ems are on. We let him go to the light wait 15 mins then do it all over again. If people knew there were no ems they wouldn't care less (Don't even now) about committing crime and evading hence why we revive them and charge them.

 

As a senior member of the PD I see why it was implemented to begin with but I think most of us can agree driving past legion and witnessing some dude get shot down by someone we can charge the dude but on the other note this guys going to the light and we can't help.  Let's be fair people know fine well if ems are on cause they would be standing at legion so I feel people are taking advantage of it in spite so the person looses stuff. 

 

Just my opinion 

[Serena]

I wrote something similar to this, and I agree entirely with what you've said. 

I don't believe we need to have all the same privileges as before. But as you said in your OP @Dashfere, I hate watching someone just bleed out there on the ground and having to let it happen. It ruins my immersion as well because Serena would never do that.

 

[Amybos]

I think now that we are able to “send for treatment” part of the hospital it creates an rp aspect for pd now. We don’t need to use Med kits but I also don’t want to take away from ems. But I this might be something we can incorporate when there is no ems on.

[Porkinator]

The current system we have in place works brilliantly in my opinion, having EMS on any police scene increases the immersion and RP experience for all Involved. In no way do I feel it needs to be changed back to PD being EMS again.

However helping victims of crime or, someone we happen to drive past in aid. There is where we could implement the usage of "send for treatment" as Amy stated.

 

Either, serpico or speed said in a previous topic, they were working on some possible changes to the send for treatment mechanic. There is maybe something there that could be looked at.

Overall I believe allowing PD members to transport for treatment, (when the RP allows it) would in the long run, be a very positive step towards engaging in more and more great quality scenarios.

[vDrop]

 

No EMS Available,

- Police should have the ability to at least transport to the hospital
- Hospital is fill, unable to send for treatment if not wanted for a felony
- RP it out that the victim, or bystander didn't make it
- If an attempted murder is involved; upgrade to a murder if said person doesn't make it
- In the case of an attempted murder, Police should be stalling until the bleed out or re spawn takes place to ensure the proper charge is initiated 

If EMS Available,

- Keep everyone on scene until EMS is clear (Just as it is)

[Bella Chase]

Agreed @Dashfere  100%   Cops should be able to help in situations they are trained to be first responders in normal situations and what cop would just leave after coming across someone like that?    I would love to see police being able to protect and serve the community fully. 

[TiLLeR]

So I know my opinion is un popular and I've hesitated to respond but at the same time want to share a different perspective. 

1.  I'm not at all in favor of cops becoming a transport mechanism to the hospital.  Often the scenes are complex and require police attention to do police work.  Transporting can take a considerable amount of time.  The RP skills of EMS and PD are also quite different.  PD IRL are first responders and can do stuff like defibrillate a patient, but they are just trying to stabilize the patient until EMS gets on scene and renders the advanced care.  This is the extent to what I think PD should be doing on badlands.  I can see some solutions that could allow for more, but transport, IMO, should not be one of them.

2.  There is very little risk to your experience in badlands.  9/10 times if you go down you get rescued.  That's a decent ratio.  One thing that I enjoy about the new system is that there is an element of risk.  IRL people die.  It's a hard fact.  I get it's hard to see someone go to the light in game, but it does mimic a part of real life.  I've had patients die on me before and it sucks.  I think the fundamental challenge here is that you are caught up in a game mechanic rather than realizing that it's another RP opportunity.  Cops should not be racing away saying "Air transport is in route"... you can be there comforting the patient. securing the scene for evidence, relaying the fact that it's murder if they do go into the light... there could be a lot of RP potential.

3.  I understand that it feels awkward that the criminal gets a revive.  I'd love to hear other suggestions here.  The only reason for this is so people can not avoid RP/Punishment for their crimes through death by cop or worse yet suicide by cop.  It was said in an earlier post... many felons (the ones that get revived) fight until the end.  I'd rather see them punished with time in jail and financially, through fines, for their actions.

4.  I get that it sucks to die, but honestly people shouldn't be walking around with thousands of dollars of money and inventory in their pockets.  That is not realistic either.  And while you do loose something when you die, including your agility, some loss is needed for the economy.  And let's be honest, people are making millions EZ lately with wine and coke.  If you don't believe me ask someone who was here a year ago how long it took to earn their first million... it was longer than a week.  While I'm an admin, as those that watch my stream have seen, I die some times too, I go to the gym and work out to build up my strength.  It sucks but it happens and at the end of the day I think it's a healthy balance.

5.  I'd like to point out that the real problem here is that EMS is not online.  This is not a slam or accusation to EMS as PD has many times where there is no coverage either.  But it's the root cause to why people in this situations pass on.  I'll go back to what we said originally when this change was put in place.  Please encourage others to become a part of the solution by joining EMS and covering the gaps.  Each role is unique and has different RP.  When PD is short staffed we don't have other factions cover.  Robberies happen, people get murdered, laws are broken, etc. - so in this case when EMS is not online - some people may not be able to be revived.

I appreciate and recognize the passion of everyone on this topic.  I respect your opinions and hope you at least understand where I'm coming from.

[Dashfere]

As I said above, I don't want to become a transport machine, I don't want to be able to on the spot revive and I for sure don't want EMS calls coming through PD 911.. I just want the option available that if resources allow and RP allows that I can help by getting victims of the city to the hospital. 

I'm curious if anyone does have any ideas for another resolution to this situation? Played in other cities, experienced a different system etc. As a group we have such a large and dynamic pool of resources and experiences here, I'm sure someone has some ideas. Throw em out here, don't be afraid. 

[Serena]

@TiLLeR

Points 2 and 3 seem contradictory to me. A felon goes down and is allowed to be taken to hospital in order to avoid shitlordery in their attempts to avoid punishments. This is to maintain a better environment as a whole to our community, correct? To ensure this person doesn't go around doing the same thing a billion times over and over, being toxic. So in the situation where they took an innocent person down with them, why would we not be allowed to help the innocent as well? Can help one but not the other? Does this not go against exactly the kind of thing you are trying to uphold? 

I don't feel it's right that a felon at a crime gets to be taken to the hospital for treatment when the victims do not. The "real death" aspect is interesting, but in real life, a cop would not let a victim bleed out on the road... They would try to do something.

 

Suggestion: What if PD could use medkits in SOP-specific parameters, and these medkits have a 50/50 chance of working (or w.e %)? And if they do not, that was our one and only attempt to save their life? Their wounds are too much for our immediate first aid to help. Could also put them in a much weaker state when revived by a PD, lower health that can't be healed up without going to hospital etc. Allows real death but also helps us PD feel like we aren't just abandoning them on the road to die. Just to reiterate, it would be very SOP-bound. Not receiving EMS calls/911's as one example.

In other cities I've also seen people who deliberately, intentionally die or not value their life, have to be stuck in the hospital for x amount of time depending on the situation. Basically it helps people value their life more, and others. Just some ideas...

Edited November 6, 2018 by Serena

[TiLLeR]

There is no contradiction.  The fact of the matter is that people die to violence IRL.  Our server mechanics allow them to talk until they bleed out, but from an RP perspective they could easily be considered dead. From a Badlands perspective, there is a larger penalty for the person who gets arrested and jailed for murder.  They are facing 30 minutes in jail and fines up to 65k depending on their crimes (although I don't think anyone ever faces that high of a fine they face plenty).  Being taken to the hospital is not a reward... it's so a consequence for violent crimes can be applied.  

Again the root problem here is that we need an EMS based solution... not an LSPD one.   Either we let untrained volunteers render aid when EMS isn't on, or perhaps we just disable voice of downed players so the scenario seems more real (as in they are dead).  Or we provide better less than lethal weapons to LSPD so they can safely take the person into custody without using lethal.

So not a contradiction - just trying to balance IRL and Game Mechanics.

[Gasman]

Jay became a cop to help people. The fact he can't help truly innocent victims is heartbreaking, but it's heartbreaking work. Bad things happen to good people. If there is an acceptable compromise we can reach here, I'm for it. Otherwise I know the status quo isn't ideal, but as a principle of action it works.

[Gasman]

1 minute ago, TiLLeR said:

Or we provide better less than lethal weapons to LSPD so they can safely take the person into custody without using lethal.

*cough* bean bag shotguns? *cough*

[TiLLeR]

Jay could join EMS when he's not on duty for PD.