feedback Feedback on VDM

[Ozzie Ozbourne]

So I have discussed with a few people and we have all had different ideas to what relates to "VDM". As of right now VDM is any form of vehicular damage regardless, however I think VDM should be cut back in a few terms to enhance certain RP. 

The current standing of VDM is literally written as "Do not use your vehicle as a weapon against other players or vehicles." & "Intentionally ramming player vehicles, occupied or not, is considered VDM."

Personally if we were allowed to make Vehicle to Vehicle contact I can see it doing plenty for RP and making things a little more fun and here's why.

 

Just yesterday I got into a scenario where I was attempting to arrest a player and his buddies chased me and my other officer up and down the streets for around 10 minutes or so in an attempt to wait for me to crash out and disable to then free their partner. In this scenario I don't see a reason to why they shouldn't be allowed to make an advancement on our vehicle. They are clearly determined criminals who would stop at NOTHING to get their friend free. Quite honestly as well if the officers were wearing a seat belt no death should occur just at most a blackout or mass amounts of flips allowing for many different ways for RP to roll out.  

Another scenario which I have found myself in: I rob a store and actually make it to my car and try to flee, officers are attempting to pit my car and I brake check them causing them to fly past me, I always have the urge to then Pit their cruiser in return as it would help with the getaway process. This being allowed in it's self would make Officers have to think twice on how to approach a Pit and when to do it, and this should be considered a Hostile Initiation from the criminal just the same as it is considered for cops. 

Say we're doing illegal street races and my rival is next to me, I should be able to Fast and Furious his ass to win and not have to worry about a ban. This would also cause the rivalry to thicken and give them some deep backgrounding beef

My main concern is RDM is only RDM when a death occurs but VDM is considered VDM regardless of a death? I feel as though that's not proper, if nobody dies why does it still count as a "Vehicular DEATH Match".

[PeterMcKay]

i think that in all honesty this should be a thing. ramming a cop car in a chase is done irl and quite often too might not be gracefull but it is done.

[TiLLeR]

We changed the rule to what it is today because it was NOT a postie experience on the server.  It becomes pure bumper cars.  GTA mechanics make damaging vehicles difficult.  Police have SOP and are trained to use rolling barricade and pit maneuvers and despite our best efforts it often doesn't work out.  Opening this type of activity to the entire server would be disruptive.  It would be players chasing players ramming them repeatedly to BM/harass them.    Additionally we use to have an issue with players ramming parked vehicles to force them to blow up or cause other types of disruptions.  I sincerely do not see this opening any RP and only leading to more hostile activities and disruptive play.

[PeterMcKay]

18 minutes ago, TiLLeR said:

We changed the rule to what it is today because it was NOT a postie experience on the server.  It becomes pure bumper cars.  GTA mechanics make damaging vehicles difficult.  Police have SOP and are trained to use rolling barricade and pit maneuvers and despite our best efforts it often doesn't work out.  Opening this type of activity to the entire server would be disruptive.  It would be players chasing players ramming them repeatedly to BM/harass them.    Additionally we use to have an issue with players ramming parked vehicles to force them to blow up or cause other types of disruptions.  I sincerely do not see this opening any RP and only leading to more hostile activities and disruptive play.

now that i think of it it seem slike this would happen yeah, maybe we can change it that it can only be done in certain situations like the one oz described?

[Ozzie Ozbourne]

23 hours ago, TiLLeR said:

We changed the rule to what it is today because it was NOT a postie experience on the server.  It becomes pure bumper cars.  GTA mechanics make damaging vehicles difficult.  Police have SOP and are trained to use rolling barricade and pit maneuvers and despite our best efforts it often doesn't work out.  Opening this type of activity to the entire server would be disruptive.  It would be players chasing players ramming them repeatedly to BM/harass them.    Additionally we use to have an issue with players ramming parked vehicles to force them to blow up or cause other types of disruptions.  I sincerely do not see this opening any RP and only leading to more hostile activities and disruptive play.

Damaging vehicles is hard yes but there are multiple different damage modifications out there that can enhance the damage caused to vehicles. I mean I have personally played on a server where even a damn stop sign would kill the engine to your car forcing you to fix it. Granted these things can happen but I do believe if we open up a little for certain scenarios maybe even start with just allowing one type of usage for a bit that can easily be determined and use it as a test run?

We can easily test and see the effects of allowing the player who is in pursuit to pit cops and see how that goes first. It's easy to know when you're being chased so it's a lot easier to watch the effects of this rule being added. Sure you may get the occasional hardasses that just ram the PD not trying for a pit but again that's easy and clear to see the true intention behind. In Badlands there are PLENTY of good RP'ers and plenty of bad one's as well. But for those who are good in RP and make chases fun and realistic rather than jumping 100ft from mirror park to senora fwy would be able to have a more enhanced and immersive police chase. 

[Thorgs]

4 hours ago, Ozzie Ozbourne said:

We can easily test and see the effects of allowing the player who is in pursuit to pit cops and see how that goes first. It's easy to know when you're being chased so it's a lot easier to watch the effects of this rule being added. Sure you may get the occasional hardasses that just ram the PD

First off I dont see the RP value in allowing civs to PIT cops I mean really where do you ever see that happen? ( hey man stop chasing my buddy or I'm gonna PIT you ). Secondly it would be disruptive cause all it takes is for civs to get upset over anything and wait till the person leaves and it end up being a ram fest cause you know 9/10 times thats what its gonna be.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Thorgs

[Ozzie Ozbourne]

1 hour ago, Thorgs said:

First off I dont see the RP value in allowing civs to PIT cops I mean really where do you ever see that happen? ( hey man stop chasing my buddy or I'm gonna PIT you ). Secondly it would be disruptive cause all it takes is for civs to get upset over anything and wait till the person leaves and it end up being a ram fest cause you know 9/10 times thats what its gonna be.

Ok that's why the only person allowed to make contact would be the individual being chased... not anyone who decides to get involved. The RP value it add's is a way to spice up a chase and put the drivers on either end on more of a edge. It would also promote the opportunity for a cop to RP damage to vehicle, damage to themselves, etc. Opening up more windows of ways to try and kill the win/lose mentality that everyone likes to say Cops have so much and stuff. 

[Dom]

I can def see the RP potential in this. Of course there is going to be people who abuse it, just like every rule at some point, but as a criminal if someone steals your car or your friends car you have to follow them around for 10 minutes till they run out of gas or hope they crash to even do anything. It sucks people will take any issue and turn it into bumper cars, but I also think a lot of people would treat this correctly. 

[dK_]

I’m just not a fan of the vagueness of the rule tbh. If I’m in some sort of initiated hostile interaction and the person decides to flee and I chase them I’m I allowed to try and stop their vehicle with mine? Am I supposed to just follow them around until one of us runs out of gas? If i rob a store, and a cop decides to stand directly in front of my vehicle and I’m trying to flee and i hit them in the process? I understand the need for the rule the way it is now, but I don’t feel that in certain situations what could technically qualify as “vdm” according to the vagueness of it the current rule should actually be qualified as vdm.

[Thorgs]

18 hours ago, Ozzie Ozbourne said:

Ok that's why the only person allowed to make contact would be the individual being chased.

Again where would you normally see this? I know this is a game but in part RP to mimic IRL to a degree most police chases I've ever seen the evader is doing all they can to just loose the cops not trying to PIT or sideswipe. And I think someone mentioned if they stole there car to chase them down sure but if your with your friend doing this would you really smash up your car and your friend just to stop the thief? Where do you really RP in the chase?

5 hours ago, Richie said:

I don’t feel that in certain situations what could technically qualify as “vdm” according to the vagueness of it the current rule should actually be qualified as vdm.

Where is the vagueness in the rule? It states " Intentionally ramming " seems straight forward to me occupied or not!

[Caralanco]

I see both sides,

On 7/8/2019 at 7:26 AM, Richie said:

If I’m in some sort of initiated hostile interaction and the person decides to flee and I chase them I’m I allowed to try and stop their vehicle with mine?

On one hand, I wish we could but as Steve mentioned previously..

On 7/7/2019 at 5:18 PM, Thorgs said:

I dont see the RP value in allowing civs to PIT cops I mean really where do you ever see that happen? ( hey man stop chasing my buddy or I'm gonna PIT you ). Secondly it would be disruptive cause all it takes is for civs to get upset over anything and wait till the person leaves and it end up being a ram fest

Unfortunate but you must expect people to abuse everything on public servers, that's why admins are so selective with what is and isn't allowed. Makes sense in real life but can quickly become toxic when applied in-game.

One thing I am in objection about is not being able to run someone over that is in front of your car pointing a gun.
Let me clarify, If you run the person over once to avoid being shot, all good. If you come back and run him over a 2nd or 3rd time, that would be VDM.
This would be very situational and I don't see it being abused as often as ramming cars would.

Edited July 9, 2019 by Oscar Wilde

[Ozzie Ozbourne]

18 hours ago, Thorgs said:

Again where would you normally see this? I know this is a game but in part RP to mimic IRL to a degree most police chases I've ever seen the evader is doing all they can to just loose the cops not trying to PIT or sideswipe. And I think someone mentioned if they stole there car to chase them down sure but if your with your friend doing this would you really smash up your car and your friend just to stop the thief? Where do you really RP in the chase?

Where is the vagueness in the rule? It states " Intentionally ramming " seems straight forward to me occupied or not!

I have no clue to how to Split what I’m quoting. 

 

IRL sure most people try to avoid contact to keep going but it happens every now and then. Obviously RP is meant to maintain a sense of realism but along with that RP is meant to test the boundaries of Realism a little bit. For Example a walking talking penguin. My point with this is if done properly and played correctly chased can become much more entertaining and competitive. In numerous chases cops have overshot their pit attempts and swing to wide, all it would take is a teeny tap and they’d go spinning. Not to mention most people already try this to an extent and it usually doesn’t hinder anything? I personally see no fault/reason to why a trial period can’t be had to see how this would affect the RP of Cop vs Criminal.

 

Secondly people who steal cars aren’t always your friends I have stolen plenty of random vehicles and plenty of my friends vehicles. Being able to ram your car to get it back and stuff is much plausible than to maintain and keep up with someone that just takes jumps every seconds and doesn’t maintain a realistic driving sense (which is another thing I feel needs to be cracked down on more). 

 

3rd the rule is Vague to an extent... I’m too tired to explain how but it just is

[speed]

14 hours ago, Ozzie Ozbourne said:

I personally see no fault/reason to why a trial period can’t be had to see how this would affect the RP of Cop vs Criminal.

Most of the rules we have are the results of "trial periods", as you suggest.

The unfortunate reality is that in many cases, most rules need to be formed with an "all or nothing" mindset, otherwise people will abuse it. Frequently.

I've often considered lightening the VDM rule, as there's many times that it would make sense to ram another player's vehicle. But as Tiller said, previously, it was not a good rule.

Maybe we'll give it a shot in the future. Maybe not. Stay tuned?

[Ozzie Ozbourne]

8 hours ago, speed said:

Most of the rules we have are the results of "trial periods", as you suggest.

The unfortunate reality is that in many cases, most rules need to be formed with an "all or nothing" mindset, otherwise people will abuse it. Frequently.

I've often considered lightening the VDM rule, as there's many times that it would make sense to ram another player's vehicle. But as Tiller said, previously, it was not a good rule.

Maybe we'll give it a shot in the future. Maybe not. Stay tuned?

I mean no matter rule is in place you'll always get people that abuse it in some way shape or form, that can easily be cut out eventually by simply cracking on it every time it's noticed. If the VDM rule is lightened of course on the roll out you're going to have to deal with having to clarify the rule more and dealing with people that don't understand how they abused the rule etc. But once it's in place for a decent time and enough people catch wind it'll be passed around from player to player and you Mods/Owners/Whatever else you want to be, don't even have to moderate it anymore.

 

Prime example - 2/6 most people warn people to not cause shit there, granted it still happens but people try to prevent it.

Example 2 - Gangs and only 4 people allowed to be hostile. That gets literally mentioned 9.9/10 times someone is doing something.

 

If you make the rule clear enough and for only a certain scenario and let it roll out for a bit and see how it goes I see no harm. Practically treat it like the OneSync test..any issues you tweak the rule to fit to what's needed again.

[Kevin Ross]

Just my 2 cents, I quite like that there is no full on ramming but i wouldn't mind a tiny exemption of "light contact" added to empty vehicles, ie pressing your vehicle up against the target vehicle(Which would be empty) and ramming it as it is quite common in severe road-rage situations for a person to, if being blocked or harassed to just put the vehicle on the bumper and push down the road. Low harm, Low risk to both parties and let's people be open to more RP scenario's and not zero sum box in = RP Scenario over.

Which does lead to "Well what if cops box it in and get out" Which i have to say, If someones plowing my car, i ain't gonna be around to see where it goes. I value my life more than i do keeping the person boxed in. My life ain't disposable. If a person is that desperate to ram a police car, i would imagine the officers would respectfully value themselves and get the heck out of the way while there car is being pushed.

Tho within my scenario, it does lead to a concern of cop's and civilians powergaming the rule and not leaving their vehicle soo maybe i got a flawed idea

[Chan]

The vdm rules is crazy harsh. 
People get banned for “vdm” when there is no loss or death in the picture. Accidents happen, people get banned for it. I fully understand people get banned for being toxic and intentionally cause harm, but for bumping into someone lightly and getting banned for it is ridiculous.

My opinion is biased since I’ve been punished for the outrageously harsh rule.

[speed]

28 minutes ago, Chan Wong said:

The vdm rules is crazy harsh. 
People get banned for “vdm” when there is no loss or death in the picture. Accidents happen, people get banned for it. I fully understand people get banned for being toxic and intentionally cause harm, but for bumping into someone lightly and getting banned for it is ridiculous.

My opinion is biased since I’ve been punished for the outrageously harsh rule.

It's really not, and no, people don't get banned for accidents. In fact, in many cases we deny VDM reports because we can't accurately tell if it was an accident or not.

The rule is extremely simple. Do not intentionally ram players/vehicles. You're welcome to be biased all you want, but don't misrepresent your own history for the sake of trying to change a rule. Stuff like that is exactly why we're hesitant to be more lenient in the first place.

[Ozzie Ozbourne]

12 hours ago, speed said:

It's really not, and no, people don't get banned for accidents. In fact, in many cases we deny VDM reports because we can't accurately tell if it was an accident or not.

The rule is extremely simple. Do not intentionally ram players/vehicles. You're welcome to be biased all you want, but don't misrepresent your own history for the sake of trying to change a rule. Stuff like that is exactly why we're hesitant to be more lenient in the first place.

But speed this kinda stuff happens with every rule ever created  how likely on a 1/10 scale are you to lighten the VDM and allow certain scenarios to have leeway 

[speed]

2 hours ago, Ozzie Ozbourne said:

But speed this kinda stuff happens with every rule ever created  how likely on a 1/10 scale are you to lighten the VDM and allow certain scenarios to have leeway 

I want to try it, believe me, I really do. I even find myself having to resist making contact in certain cases. But transitioning from a hard-set rule like this is difficult, and as we’ve said, it previously didn’t work.

[Ozzie Ozbourne]

12 hours ago, speed said:

I want to try it, believe me, I really do. I even find myself having to resist making contact in certain cases. But transitioning from a hard-set rule like this is difficult, and as we’ve said, it previously didn’t work.

I mean most people don't follow this rule to the full extent to it and typically people ram cops anyways in situations. Honestly the way i see it is if you adjust the rule and tweak it it won't too different from what the RP already is except for the bumps and bruises will be intentional.

[Christopher Hawke]

This is a thing, should be made less strict and more fair. VDM should only be VDM in case someone dies, and should only be seen in the case of harassment.

Don't believe it's something IRL? Fight me: External Link

[PeterMcKay]

9 hours ago, Christopher Hawke said:

This is a thing, should be made less strict and more fair. VDM should only be VDM in case someone dies, and should only be seen in the case of harassment.

Don't believe it's something IRL? Fight me: External Link

i get where you are comming from BUT

 

On 7/6/2019 at 7:30 PM, TiLLeR said:

We changed the rule to what it is today because it was NOT a postie experience on the server.  It becomes pure bumper cars.  GTA mechanics make damaging vehicles difficult.  Police have SOP and are trained to use rolling barricade and pit maneuvers and despite our best efforts it often doesn't work out.  Opening this type of activity to the entire server would be disruptive.  It would be players chasing players ramming them repeatedly to BM/harass them.    Additionally we use to have an issue with players ramming parked vehicles to force them to blow up or cause other types of disruptions.  I sincerely do not see this opening any RP and only leading to more hostile activities and disruptive play.

i still come back to this point. mainly because of

 

On 7/14/2019 at 1:29 AM, speed said:

It's really not, and no, people don't get banned for accidents. In fact, in many cases we deny VDM reports because we can't accurately tell if it was an accident or not.

The rule is extremely simple. Do not intentionally ram players/vehicles. You're welcome to be biased all you want, but don't misrepresent your own history for the sake of trying to change a rule. Stuff like that is exactly why we're hesitant to be more lenient in the first place.

 

[Christopher Hawke]

See that's when you just get smart about it and report the BS. I don't quite understand why this is such a "sensitive" topic, and we have to protect everyone from a ban.

[Thorgs]

On 7/19/2019 at 4:41 AM, Christopher Hawke said:

This is a thing, should be made less strict and more fair. VDM should only be VDM in case someone dies, and should only be seen in the case of harassment.

Don't believe it's something IRL? Fight me: External Link

Totally disagree and as I stated earlier in the thre thread it doesn't happen in most chase and admins can't be everywhere to see and a lot of people don't record. It's a rule that protects everyone.