New gang rules

[Ren Yates]

Well its my time to vent about these new gang rules. Now I do see some validity to the new rules however I do end up seeing some damage from this.

Now With Rule one.

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Rule 1: Gangs members in excess of the 4 player limit may not take part in hostile roleplay with the main group, and may not wear gang attire.

This is a good rule only in hostile situations and needed to be enforced. I get it.

Rule 2 is where I have the issue with.

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Rule 2: Gangs may not ally with other players, gangs, or security groups to increase their effective size.

This is where the issue I have is. This to me seems to have more of a leeway for the admins. This means that even though we may have a group that is trying to RP something and not even in hostile roleplay that this could be a ban-able offense and I don't think it should be that way. I think this is forcing groups that now we have to decide on who RP's during any given night which Forcing RP shouldn't happen. No one should be forced to RP. You guys should know this. Even in the rules in the kidnapping that after 15 minutes if you are not wanting to do with it anymore you can just walk away you can. Now we cant even be able to even stand there and talk as a group wearing different clothes because this causes us to be banned.

Rule Number 3 is Needed and I agree on too.

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Rule 3: Initiating hostile roleplay on, or being initiated on by any active member of a gang constitutes initiation with all other active members in the immediate area.

This rule is great. I understand this greatly and for this 100%. This should be defined more within a distance wise and I am not sure how this can be monitored or controlled but I do like this idea.

 

Over all I think these rules are needed. However I see a bunch of issues. I see that there could be a gang issue here. At one point in time there could be up to a max of 8 gangs operating at once. Now this could be pretty bad and could cause a lot of issues not only for the cops but for the general public. Now even if the you only have 6 gangs going after each other at once or what not, and only 2 or 3 officers this could be not only problematic for the cops but also for EMS that now also have to put themselves in harms way or even get themselves in trouble by not remaining neutral. There could be an issue that once the gang issue surfaces or if it does, then how does this effect the general look of the server or community? I consider this place my home and I love this place but I just think that these rules are more fitting to a Hardcore server and this is a "Lite RP" server. The way I see it also, is that the more you put in rules like this the more RP you are taking away from people. The other issue I have with this, is, you have more gangs going after each other the more people like to take IC stuff and take it OOC. These rules seem to hurt more of the RP'ers then it does with the other gangs. Myself being in the MC, we don't always go into hostile situations and that we have a great RP story that we cant just single one person out to continue it. The MC involves everyone in the club because thats what we want to do, we bring the members in. Now we want people who RP and not just be shirt lords and be hostile all the time. We want to be able to have a good RP and a great time. I would like to see what everyone else thinks. Sorry for the long rant but this is just how I feel.

[Serpico]

16 minutes ago, Ren Yates said:

I consider this place my home and I love this place but I just think that these rules are more fitting to a Hardcore server and this is a "Lite RP" server.

We are not a lite rp server. We have moved away from this a while ago. Keep that in mind. Our expectations is more in the upper end of medium RP.

[Ren Yates]

14 minutes ago, Serpico said:

We are not a lite rp server. We have moved away from this a while ago. Keep that in mind. Our expectations is more in the upper end of medium RP.

Ok, well at times it doesnt even feel like that, How are we basing this off of if you dont mind me asking? The only reason why I ask this, is because most of the time I never see this from anyone else lately from the newer people.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Ren Yates

[Thorgs]

 further clarify:
Rule 1: Players in excess of the 4 player gang limit may no longer wear gang attire, even if they are not going to be participating in hostile roleplay.

I think from a Police perspective this is needed to prevent more than 4 dressing up in same attire. It is more intimidating to stop someone and 5+ gang members show up or call comes in and upon arrival you have 8+ gang members standing there this will help now that only 4 can dress alike and no worries of knowing who the 4 that may be hostile if it comes to that.

[Ren Yates]

10 minutes ago, Thorgs said:

 further clarify:
Rule 1: Players in excess of the 4 player gang limit may no longer wear gang attire, even if they are not going to be participating in hostile roleplay.

I think from a Police perspective this is needed to prevent more than 4 dressing up in same attire. It is more intimidating to stop someone and 5+ gang members show up or call comes in and upon arrival you have 8+ gang members standing there this will help now that only 4 can dress alike and no worries of knowing who the 4 that may be hostile if it comes to that.

However Steve, with the old rules that still applied as well. As from a PD perceptive, we always have to watch our numbers to make sure that we are not out numbered as well. It still can be an intimidation thing when trying to show up 1 cop to 4 gang members. Even if there was 8 member's there were at least 6 cops possibly online at one time as well. But with the old rule as well this was still supposed to be obeyed. With these new rules it doesn't help the cops other than to create more gang on gang violence for the cops as well. And when the cops try to bust that up, now you have anywhere from 1 to 6 cops to 4 to 8 gang members now trying to take the cops out as well. Just more chaos and confusion.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Ren Yates

[Thorgs]

18 minutes ago, Ren Yates said:

However Steve, with the old rules that still applied as well.

I did to a degree as far as I was told you still could dress more than 4 members alike as long as they had no intention to engage in hostile RP the new rules clarify it further. And I agree cops should use caution when you are outnumbered but you always have that 1 super cop that will try.

[Ren Yates]

That is true, but most of the true RP'ers were getting a handle on this. I do admit I have fallen once for this, but had gotten better at trying but I was just feeling that this was not the way to do it, especially with also including rule 2.

[HalcyonEnd]

1 hour ago, Ren Yates said:

Ok, well at times it doesnt even feel like that, How are we basing this off of if you dont mind me asking? The only reason why I ask this, is because most of the time I never see this from anyone else lately from the newer people.

Not to derail the perfectly fine OP topic. But since this has also been raised, I will say I appreciate the a higher quality of RP is being pushed on the server, and to be quite frank I've genuinely had better RP at times with newer players (including a 59k Default Danny) than 4 digit vets. I don't like the constant bad wrap newer players are getting when so many are here because they've been inspired by big streamers that focus on entertaining RP and a lot of these folks want that and will do their best to give it to you if you give them (us, I'm still new I feel) a chance.

Let's be real the hate is just because new players = queue time and people are itching because they want to scuba alone for 6 hours for their 7th glowy supercar 'for the RP'.

[Ren Yates]

There are always those rare jems within those higher numbers, I get that and do see that. However Most of the time there are bad people and unfortunately like everything else and in this case point in fact, they ruin it for others as well. Yes most streamers are bringing people who want to play however there are still some people that come in here from there thinking this is still GTA online and can just go around killing people and hitting people like they want to. Yes lately more and more of the new folks are getting more into RP however some of these 4 digit numbers you speak of normally do RP as well. Also, just cause someone has a 4 digit number doesnt mean they have been here the longest either, it just means they connect to the server a long time ago and didnt stick around either possibly. But most of the 4 digit numbers do know how to RP and do it very well.

[speed]

2 hours ago, Ren Yates said:

This is where the issue I have is. This to me seems to have more of a leeway for the admins. This means that even though we may have a group that is trying to RP something and not even in hostile roleplay that this could be a ban-able offense and I don't think it should be that way. I think this is forcing groups that now we have to decide on who RP's during any given night which Forcing RP shouldn't happen. No one should be forced to RP. You guys should know this. Even in the rules in the kidnapping that after 15 minutes if you are not wanting to do with it anymore you can just walk away you can. Now we cant even be able to even stand there and talk as a group wearing different clothes because this causes us to be banned.

I'm not understanding why you have an issue with this rule all of the sudden. This rule is not new. It has existed for over a year. The only change was replacing "should not" with "may not" to make it clear that it's a rule, not a suggestion.

The enforcement of it will be the same. Two groups RPing together obviously aren't an issue. Two groups working together to increase their effective size is.

2 hours ago, Ren Yates said:

Now we cant even be able to even stand there and talk as a group wearing different clothes because this causes us to be banned.

That's not true. You just can't ally with them (join/assist them in hostile roleplay), or have more than 4 players wearing gang clothes. If you're clearly wearing different clothes, you're fine.

2 hours ago, Ren Yates said:

At one point in time there could be up to a max of 8 gangs operating at once.

That's always been the case, and the same is true now. But that's generally not how it works out. Most people aren't interested in gang-life.

2 hours ago, Ren Yates said:

Now even if the you only have 6 gangs going after each other at once or what not, and only 2 or 3 officers this could be not only problematic for the cops but also for EMS that now also have to put themselves in harms way or even get themselves in trouble by not remaining neutral.

I'm struggling to see how this is relevant in any way to the rule changes.

2 hours ago, Ren Yates said:

Myself being in the MC, we don't always go into hostile situations

But when you do, many times there are more than 4 people involved simply because your clothing makes it difficult to determine who's hostile and who's not. I've personally dealt with the aftermath of this. Other gangs had the same issue. Hence the change.

19 minutes ago, Ren Yates said:

There are always those rare jems within those higher numbers, I get that and do see that. However Most of the time there are bad people and unfortunately like everything else and in this case point in fact, they ruin it for others as well.

Implying that the new players joining the server are mostly bad people and responsible for this change is extremely disrespectful, and also completely false. You were once new as well. And those same 4 digit players you mentioned were saying the same thing about you when you joined.

I'll say this publicly. This change was forced largely by the actions of veteran gang members, not new players. Just because you've been here a long time does not mean you're without fault.

[Kota]

2 hours ago, Thorgs said:

 further clarify:
Rule 1: Players in excess of the 4 player gang limit may no longer wear gang attire, even if they are not going to be participating in hostile roleplay.

I think from a Police perspective this is needed to prevent more than 4 dressing up in same attire. It is more intimidating to stop someone and 5+ gang members show up or call comes in and upon arrival you have 8+ gang members standing there this will help now that only 4 can dress alike and no worries of knowing who the 4 that may be hostile if it comes to that.

What do the cops have to be worried about they already out gun, out armor and outnumber civs 6v4 in most cases. If the group you're dealing with acts within the rules what does it matter the numbers? I mean if they don't it's easy ban or disband the gang... Sounds like this shouldn't be used as a PD thing as PD on this server gets such an upper hand on civs in most cases.  I honestly don't want to hear it being a PD issue. I mean for fucks sake just the other night 6 cops at the clubhouse 3 MC members hostile and it resulted in the use of higher firepower than a shotgun to take the remaining 1 guy down. When there was still like 5 cops up and active. That is the shit that makes me think gang limit should be 6 not 4. 

Side note I am willing to see how and what this new rule leads too but I can say right now I am not happy as it has just killed a roleplay story we all have been working at least a month or two building up too. Having to have gang members not be able to rep colors and be a part of it now without risk of being banned for exceeding the 4 limit or rule 2 of gangs aligning due to you know we are friends or hangout with the people not in gang attire worries me, even when not hostile is my major complaint with this. This really fucks with certain gangs like the Vagos and an MC... Who make people within roleplay earn their colors and to have to take it away cuz 4 people are already roleplaying said club or gang is forcing roleplay on others. More so because everyone and myself in the MC has made it a point to try their hardest to make sure rules was followed. I hate the idea that members of the MC have to tell each other sorry buddy but no room tonight could you fuck off somewhere else. How is that productive to roleplay? I think the problem is the admins should disband or dismantle the problem children gangs that run around taking advantage of the rules and break them not punish the groups that are trying not go out and shoot up other gangs and are trying to roleplay. I can tell you The Lost isn't out fucking with cops every night sometimes yes it happens but it's not our mission to go out and fuck with other groups with hostility... Granted when they come up on us in the Clubhouse of course they're met with verbal hostility it's us playing a role of bikers... Whom you know arn't exactly nice people. But We actually don't grind money and just try to roleplay. We personally make meth just to have an RP drug trade off like in the movies every week with the Vagos... So I am not sure what the issue is with a group like ours other than some people hate we have numbers... Numbers we don't really go flaunting with ill intent outside of the clubhouse nor try to use against anyone... 

Btw riding in an MC was much cooler with 6-7 bikes rather than 4 RIP MC formations. 

Also @Speed you had just told me last sunday that having more than 4 in gang attire was okay so long as only 4 were hostile in a DM so that also has me a bit jaded as I just went to you asking and yes I get it rules change but why tell me it was okay just to say it's not less than a week later. 

Edited April 2, 2019 by Kota Taylor

[Serena]

3 hours ago, speed said:

That's not true. You just can't ally with them (join/assist them in hostile roleplay), or have more than 4 players wearing gang clothes. If you're clearly wearing different clothes, you're fine.

Please read this closely, Kota.

[Thorgs]

2 hours ago, Kota Taylor said:

 If the group you're dealing with acts within the rules what does it matter the numbers?

Well obviously your group and others must not be abiding by it hence Speeds remark above. 

2 hours ago, Kota Taylor said:

I honestly don't want to hear it being a PD issue. I mean for fucks sake just the other night 6 cops at the clubhouse 3 MC members hostile and it resulted in the use of higher firepower than a shotgun to take the remaining 1 guy down. When there was still like 5 cops up and active. That is the shit that makes me think gang limit should be 6 not 4.

Funny saw no reports on this if that's was the case.  You obviously prior to being a gang member used to complain on the same subject when in PD now it's you. It's not just a PD issue many civilians complain about it as well but yet if it's not Kotas way then there is a **** fest. You seem to always make it out that its everyone else causes the problems and your the innocent party and feel the Admins are always targeting you. Changes and clarification are made for a reason and I'm sure as Speed said it more than one group that's brought this about. 

[Reuben ~ Reckonity]

5 hours ago, speed said:

or have more than 4 players wearing gang clothes

This is the one thing I have the problem with, more than 4 can't wear the same thing. It's fine when it comes to Hostile stuff but what if you're just RP'ing a large group but only 4 go hostile, I see both sides but this is the only thing I have a problem with. Let them dress in the same attire and keep only 4 hostile at all times. Don't see why an RP group should be stopped from doing this as it's just clothing.

[Thorgs]

2 hours ago, Reuben ~ Reckonity said:

Let them dress in the same attire and keep only 4 hostile at all times. Don't see why an RP group should be stopped from doing this as it's just clothing.

This is why below:

7 hours ago, speed said:

But when you do, many times there are more than 4 people involved simply because your clothing makes it difficult to determine who's hostile and who's not. I've personally dealt with the aftermath of this. Other gangs had the same issue. Hence the change.

 

[Mia]

Regarding gang clothes, I thought this what the rule always was, or at least that's how I interpreted it. Was kind of surprised with what I was seeing after being away for awhile. It doesn't just clear up who is hostile for cops but for other lone civs and gangs who get rolled up on by more 4.

[speed]

3 hours ago, Reuben ~ Reckonity said:

This is the one thing I have the problem with, more than 4 can't wear the same thing. It's fine when it comes to Hostile stuff but what if you're just RP'ing a large group but only 4 go hostile, I see both sides but this is the only thing I have a problem with. Let them dress in the same attire and keep only 4 hostile at all times. Don't see why an RP group should be stopped from doing this as it's just clothing.

That’s why we were lenient on it before this change. We understand that there’s no harm in more than 4 people wearing gang clothing when there’s no hostile RP involved. However, we all know that a non-hostile situation can turn at any moment.

What you requested is exactly how it was handled before. However, several groups were using that lenience as a loophole to create confusion and an unfair advantage because their rivals couldn’t be sure who was hostile and who was not. It also resulted in a few violations of the gang size rules simply because people can’t resist helping their friends.

8 hours ago, Kota Taylor said:

Also @Speed you had just told me last sunday that having more than 4 in gang attire was okay so long as only 4 were hostile in a DM so that also has me a bit jaded as I just went to you asking and yes I get it rules change but why tell me it was okay just to say it's not less than a week later. 

Because enough issues arose within that week that the changes needed to be made. I’m not going to ignore something that’s harming the server just because I told someone it was ok a week ago.

27 minutes ago, Mia said:

Regarding gang clothes, I thought this what the rule always was, or at least that's how I interpreted it. Was kind of surprised with what I was seeing after being away for awhile. It doesn't just clear up who is hostile for cops but for other lone civs and gangs who get rolled up on by more 4.

It was viewed as more of a suggestion to prevent issues related to gang size than an actual rule. We were lenient on it because of the reasons being mentioned above. But it caused problems, so it’s now an official rule.

You're correct, most of the benefit of this is on the civilian side, which is where most of the issues were being noticed. That is intended. There is a small benefit to cops as a side-effect, but again, it’s simply due to removing an advantage that was never intended in the first place.

[Jayce Storm]

30 minutes ago, speed said:

What you requested is exactly how it was handled before. However, several groups were using that lenience as a loophole to create confusion and an unfair advantage because their rivals couldn’t be sure who was hostile and who was not. It also resulted in a few violations of the gang size rules simply because people can’t resist helping their friends.

Is there any proof of this to be used as an excuse for the result of this rule change?

I can't speak on other groups, but I know forsure the Lost MC didn't even remotely think of this at all. I don't think any of the main groups did either, from what I've noticed. 

[speed]

7 minutes ago, Jax Taylor said:

Is there any proof of this to be used as an excuse for the result of this rule change?

Are you serious right now? We don’t need an “excuse” to change server rules.

That said, yes, there’s proof. We don’t sit around rewriting rules because it’s fun.

13 minutes ago, Jax Taylor said:

I don't think any of the main groups did either, from what I've noticed. 

You’d be wrong.

[Kota]

5 hours ago, Thorgs said:

 You obviously prior to being a gang member used to complain on the same subject when in PD now it's you. 

1

Yeah, it's called perspective you wouldn't know anything about that... Honestly, when was the last time you actually did anything but play cop? My view has changed since due to the amount of time I have spent recently on Civ and how long I was on PD and can honestly say it's an issue.

 

 

5 hours ago, Thorgs said:

Funny saw no reports on this if that's was the case.  

 

And no report was made as personally I don't feel any report made against those able to use the MP5 carry any weight so what's the point. I will say, I enjoyed the scene all together when it happened and personally am not trying to attack the officer just don't like the fact in that case the PD had a very crippling advantage. And if the gang rule was to allow 6 it would have been a bit more fair. 

 

5 hours ago, Thorgs said:

if it's not Kotas way then there is a **** fest. You seem to always make it out that its everyone else causes the problems and your the innocent party and feel the Admins are always targeting you. 

 

1. When in my above post did I once say I feel admins are always targeting me? 

2. Its called a forum you know where you go to debate and discuss things yes I tend to have a voice of my own and not just bow down and accept changes but argue from my perspective is that not what the point of having a forum is? Maybe you should get up off your knees a bit more often and have your own opinion about things. Fact is this is a community and if I voice a concern I am sure others feel the same way but just are not comfortable speaking up about it and I just am a bit more passionate about it than others and I will never apologize for that.  

Edited April 2, 2019 by Kota Taylor

[Zayura]

9 hours ago, speed said:

That's always been the case, and the same is true now. But that's generally not how it works out. Most people aren't interested in gang-life.

I will need to disagree with that due to the huge amount of people that I see trying to be part of the Vagos / New MC clubs and even other gangs coming to the city, and that is not even a new thing.

 

[Primalstorm]

Keep this civil and quit with the remarks or I will close this post down.

[Zayura]

I will just give my honest opinion and agree with what @Ren Yates said as main topic, also I felt a little bit unconfortable after I also get notified about the 64 players in the server and the higher staff notified about having more cops, more ems (no issue with that, that might be fair) BUT there was no comment over the civilian ganks, I mean, I understand there will be more drug calls / shot calls / etc etc for cops and more people going down for EMS but having gang rules limiting hostility only to 4 members and now this and MAYBE in the future having 8 cops for 4 gang members keeping in mind cops (depending on the ranks) can have UC vehicles / Better weapons (Shotguns / MP5 [I know it has rules to be used but still]) / Armor that would be ridiculously unfair. But keeping the one sync apart, I still think that the clothing rule (2) shouldn't be like that, I dont want to attack anyone or say that the admins are bad, I know every single one of the work alot and they have their own lifes and problems to deal with other then a fiveM server and they still do a great job on the server, but maybe if some of them would be more around as a civ and see how things are for civs maybe it would be a better way of monitorizing the players and seeing things from a different prespective, and by being around I dont mean as their own characters due to the fact that everyone will be like "Hey look its speed!" or "Hey look its Serena!" or "Hey look its Daniel!" the ones ive seen more arround and actualy experiencing more civ life is Bob Dangle and Daniel Morningstar. 

Sorry if anyone got offended. If needed my DM is opened, 

Best Regards.

[speed]

19 minutes ago, Alex Wolf said:

also I felt a little bit unconfortable after I also get notified about the 64 players in the server and the higher staff notified about having more cops, more ems (no issue with that, that might be fair) BUT there was no comment over the civilian ganks

It’s much easier to disseminate information about a temporary SOP change amongst a small group of whitelisted members than a temporary rule change that effects each of our 60k players. See Kota’s reaction above for why that’s a bad idea. If/when we’re in a position to permanently change to 64 slots, the gang size rules will obviously be adjusted accordingly.

25 minutes ago, Alex Wolf said:

but maybe if some of them would be more around as a civ and see how things are for civs maybe it would be a better way of monitorizing the players and seeing things from a different prespective

Not sure how you formed this opinion. Tiller is the only admin that primarily plays cop. The rest of us main civilian by an overwhelming majority.

I’d also like to re-emphasize that this change is not the result gang vs cop issues, rather gang vs gang and gang vs civilian. The benefit to cops is minimal, as they have already received training for these situations.

[Merr Khan]

So I'm confused:

Can a whole gang be in a private clubhouse, or appartment, hanging out and talking with more then 4 members?

(Or are we forcing meta gaming and discord chat instead of ingame meetings). 

Can one gang sell/buy drugs with another gang? 

(Or are we prohibiting Rp with players, forcing only local drug sales)

Will this rule on group size be applied to garage 2/6?

(Too often there are 4+ with guns out, working together, and no matching clothes). 

Will gangs ever be white listed with unique clothes, and hangouts/clubs that only the gang can wear, And meet at?

(Or will there be no benefit to being in a group, encouraging solo RP only)

Can a gang murder a civilian wearing their clothes or make them take it off? Or file a player report for disruptive behavior?

(Or do they simply have to pretend to not see blatain disrespect)

 

I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm mearly assessing if gang rp is worth the investment of time and energy.  

Thanks. 

Edited April 2, 2019 by Merr Khan